L00b Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 What context do you think it gives? If all trade between the UK and the EU stopped then it would do more damage to the UK than it would the EU... so what? That is never going to happen so what is the relevance?I don't think anyone has suggested that all trade between the UK and the EU was going to stop as a result of a Brexit. Some trade would be lost both ways, surely no-one is going to disagree with that. The real issue is how much value (to the UK) would be lost, once the UK is on the outside, in direct competition with the US, the BRICs and all the others, to supply commodity goods and services to EU member states. All of the trade could well be retained, but what good if it comes at the price of a 26% profit loss (to use my earlier example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Not a killer maybe. But don't think you're voting for the status quo if you vote for it. A vote to stay in is a vote to be taken on a wild ride to full political union. This is of course my opinion and not the stated position of the UK government. But then they've been saying the same thing for 40 years and Europe gets more and more integrated. I advise you to consider whether you want to be a citizen of a United States of Europe, and assume that if you vote for in, that's where we'll end up. The PM disagree with you, here's what he said about further integration with the EU: "Our special status means Britain can have the best of both worlds, so the UK is in the parts of the EU that "work for us" but exempt from those that don't, such as the Euro. The reforms will be "legally binding in international law" and "cannot be unpicked" without the agreement of Britain and all 27 other EU countries. There will be treaty change to incorporate the protections" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Not a killer maybe. But don't think you're voting for the status quo if you vote for it. A vote to stay in is a vote to be taken on a wild ride to full political union. This is of course my opinion and not the stated position of the UK government. But then they've been saying the same thing for 40 years and Europe gets more and more integrated. I advise you to consider whether you want to be a citizen of a United States of Europe, and assume that if you vote for in, that's where we'll end up. Ok, so take it further. Why would a political union be a bad thing? Surely if that was to happen we'd want to be a major player in that rather than allowing the rest of the EU to make decisions that might work out badly for us? Lets keep it as factual and void of emotion as we can, as you have so far. Few good decisions are based on emotion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retep Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 No. Europe exports more to the UK than we export to them. That is because the UK does not trade in isolation with Europe. Europe produces things that the UK buys, but that we could buy just as easily from other places. But the UK exports to the Commonwealth and the rest of the world. The UK is said to have 3000,000 jobs from the trade we have with Europe. Europe has around 5000,000 jobs from the trade with the UK. The value of UK exports to Europe is much lower than the value of Europe's exports here. So who has most to lose from a trade war? I enjoy your attempts at wit. I don't laugh at the wit but I do laugh at your attempts at it. Looks lik you are right on that, https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/EU_and_Non-EU_Data.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I don't think anyone has suggested that all trade between the UK and the EU was going to stop as a result of a Brexit. Some trade would be lost both ways, surely no-one is going to disagree with that. The real issue is how much value (to the UK) would be lost, once the UK is on the outside, in direct competition with the US, the BRICs and all the others, to supply commodity services. All of the trade could well be retained, but what good if it comes at the price of a 26% profit loss (to use my earlier example). That still doesn't explain the 'context' that MobileB claimed those numbers provide. All the numbers tell us it that the EU has less exposure to the risks associated with Brexit but so what? It really doesn't matter who has the most to gain or lose. It is in both the UK's and the EU's interests to have good trading relations with each other and for our economies to prosper. The EU isn't going to declare economic war against the UK as punishment for leaving, which means all this nonsense about whose got the biggest conkers and hardest dad is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Ok, so take it further. Why would a political union be a bad thing? Surely if that was to happen we'd want to be a major player in that rather than allowing the rest of the EU to make decisions that might work out badly for us? Lets keep it as factual and void of emotion as we can, as you have so far. Few good decisions are based on emotion! We'd be a piece of a major player in the EU. Prior to the EU, the UK had seats on the WTO and a wide variety of other important international bodies. We are, after all, the 5th largest economy in the world. We have in fact lost a great deal of influence by being subsumed into the EU. We could have that influence back. I remind you that less that half our trade is with the EU. By being in we have more influence and weight within the EU, perhaps, but we've lost so much influence outside. If you're in favour of full European integration, that's perfectly legitimate. I'm not. And only a small minority of the UK people are. I get upset that we're told that a vote for in is the 'safe' option for the status quo. But we know from its history that it integrates continuously so we're being deceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Ok, so take it further. Why would a political union be a bad thing? Surely if that was to happen we'd want to be a major player in that rather than allowing the rest of the EU to make decisions that might work out badly for us? Lets keep it as factual and void of emotion as we can, as you have so far. Few good decisions are based on emotion! A major player with an 8.4% vote/say, which will be watered down even more if other countries (like Turkey) join. A political union means surrendering the right to self-determine i.e. creating our own laws and immigration policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy lady Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) That still doesn't explain the 'context' that MobileB claimed those numbers provide. All the numbers tell us it that the EU has less exposure to the risks associated with Brexit but so what? It really doesn't matter who has the most to gain or lose. It is in both the UK's and the EU's interests to have good trading relations with each other and for our economies to prosper. The EU isn't going to declare economic war against the UK as punishment for leaving, which means all this nonsense about whose got the biggest conkers and hardest dad is irrelevant. Irelevant numbers like you say. But those quoting them are desperate. You see the EU has 22 million unemployed. The UK only 1.8 million. So the EU is 12 times worse off than the UK. If we were forced to stop trade with the EU we would loose 3 million jobs but gain 5 million. The EU would lose 5 million and gain 3 million. So that would leave the EU with 24 million unemployed. The UK would have full employment and would have to allow in selected migrants to fill the vacancies. So who needs who the most? ---------- Post added 22-02-2016 at 16:11 ---------- Looks like you are right on that, https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/EU_and_Non-EU_Data.aspx I know I'm right but don't tell loob. Edited February 22, 2016 by foxy lady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 We'd be a piece of a major player in the EU. Prior to the EU, the UK had seats on the WTO and a wide variety of other important international bodies. We are, after all, the 5th largest economy in the world. We have in fact lost a great deal of influence by being subsumed into the EU. We could have that influence back. I remind you that less that half our trade is with the EU. By being in we have more influence and weight within the EU, perhaps, but we've lost so much influence outside. If you're in favour of full European integration, that's perfectly legitimate. I'm not. And only a small minority of the UK people are. I get upset that we're told that a vote for in is the 'safe' option for the status quo. But we know from its history that it integrates continuously so we're being deceived. A good answer with thinking about thank you. I'm not in favour or against really. On a fantasy level I'd love a world government, but short term and with regards to the EU I'm torn, honestly completely torn. ---------- Post added 22-02-2016 at 16:26 ---------- A major player with an 8.4% vote/say, which will be watered down even more if other countries (like Turkey) join. A political union means surrendering the right to self-determine i.e. creating our own laws and immigration policies. As above, a good answer. And one I shall think about. Is it worth giving up a guaranteed 8.4% share for a potential bigger share elsewhere? Can that be answered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It seems that Boris Johnson isn't completely in the out campaign. He's suggested that if we vote to leave the EU, we can negotiate a better deal and then hold another referendum. It's looking like he's made a mess of his hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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