unbeliever Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Oh dear... 162 nations have a seat on the WTO, including the UK and the EU (that makes it 2 votes against 1). The UK also is a security council member (The EU isn't) and is a key-member of the NATO (The EU isn't). The UK has lost no influence, it has gained influence. By using one voice at the WTO the voice of the UK is amplified by being part of the EU. I've just debunked that, but let's be clear - Empire is over. The Commonwealth still exists and that'll have to do. Oh wait, that still exists DESPITE the EU? funny, because that is not on the cards at all. For someone who accuses others of scare-mongering on economics a lot, you seem to be using scare mongering tactics a lot. Except that yours are pretty easy to throw out as opposed to the potential impact of Brexit on the countries economic status. All decisions made in the EU are ratified by the European Parliament, and are proposed unanimously by the European Council (of which the UK is a significant member). The 'reform deal' Cameron wanted took ages to negotiate for a reason. All members count and all voices are heard in this. Oddly enough, that is the result of being a democracy, the one thing you keep rubbishing. What you are really propagating is that the UK loses its seat on the European Council, whilst still being subject to reform that has been proposed by that very council. The major difference this time? The UK has no veto, no say at all, it just has to sit up and pay notice each time a trade-related issue comes to the fore. I know we go over this all the time and you refuse to see what that means, but you are not the only one reading this reply so I will give an example: London is a global financial centre. The UK has managed to keep the City clear from Eurozone measures introduced to all Eurozone banks, transaction tax, more transparency, more accountability etc. etc. As soon as the UK leaves the EU the EU will bring in those taxes and rules on all financial transactions between the EU and the UK. It might not directly be law in the UK, but it will affect the City. That isn't anything to do with Free Trade by the way, that is to do with the changing status of the UK in relation to the EU. Cameron has been keeping the City out of the impact-zone by adding clauses etc. Those clauses are not valid for a non-member and will disappear like snow for the sun. The UK's seat at the WTO is vacant because we're in the EU. So to suggest that we still 'have' that seat is rather misleading. The 'reform deal' has not been ratified by the EU parliament and is therefore worthless. They're not going to vote on it before the referendum. Assume that it doesn't exist. The suggestion that we'd still be subject to EU law outside it is rather preposterous. We'd be affected by it. As is everybody else in the world. That's a completely different thing. All the UK's opt-outs have historically shown themselves to be temporary. We were even on the verge of joining the Euro before its latest crisis. In international relations a country's influence is determined primarily by its economic might. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, and could be influential. EU policy is determined by qualified majority voting, so whilst the EU may be more influential than an independent UK, the UK has minimal influence on the EU. There's nothing to stop us acting collectively with the EU when we have common interests. But outside we have the option of acting independently when that is in our best interests. Edited February 22, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) So why bring it up? Why bring what up? ---------- Post added 22-02-2016 at 18:45 ---------- Do you really think it is that simple? No but its best to make it simple so that its easy for everyone to understand, bottom line is that in the very unlikely situation that the EU won't enter into a mutually agreeable trade deal we will either trade with someone else or produce more of the stuff that we consume, if we produce it it creates jobs. Edited February 22, 2016 by sutty27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 You see the EU has 22 million unemployed. The UK only 1.8 million. So the EU is 12 times worse off than the UK. But does it work out like that? as the EU also has almost 12 times the people that the UK has it works out at around the same percentage of unemployed for the EU vs UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) But does it work out like that? as the EU also has almost 12 times the people that the UK has it works out at around the same percentage of unemployed for the EU vs UK. The seasonally adjusted unemployment rate in the UK is current over 10%, which puts it at twice the rate of the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics#Recent_developments_in_unemployment_at_a_European_and_Member_State_level This will be slightly low as the UK is part of the EU and brings their numbers down. The EU does not have 12 times the population of the UK. The UK has a population of 60 million at the EU-UK is about 440 million, which is about 7 times larger. Edited February 22, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Car Boot Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Surely nobody can seriously suggest that the EU is democratic? It is an organisation that is secretive, unaccountable and deeply undemocratic. FACT. It is also a corrupt organisation, independent auditors have refused to sign off the EU's accounts for 21 years. If you, like me, support fraud, corruption and oppose accountability and democracy, then please vote to REMAIN in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Nov 2014 Britain is the most prosperous of the big economies in the European Union, a major report finds today, but is still behind countries like Switzerland and Norway which chose not to join the bloc. The survey also found that the UK is a world-leader for entrepreneurship, coming 8th in the list. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11204578/Britain-ahead-of-Germany-in-rich-league.html Its surprising that some people still think that the UK is a basket case that can only survive under the EU umbrella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The seasonally adjusted unemployment rate in the UK is current over 10%, which puts it at twice the rate of the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics#Recent_developments_in_unemployment_at_a_European_and_Member_State_level This will be slightly low as the UK is part of the EU and brings their numbers down. The EU does not have 12 times the population of the UK. The UK has a population of 60 million at the EU-UK is about 440 million, which is about 7 times larger. Thanks for that link and now bookmarked. According to Google in 2013 the UK had a population of around 64.1M and the EU 742.5M which is around 11.5 times greater. I take it from those statistics also that migrants/refugees/asylum seekers do not get counted as being unemployed, so in effect unemployment in the EU could be even worse that made out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost rider Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I have been reading the reasons for staying in the EU on the PRO EUROPA website,some of the reasons are hilarious.Cheaper roaming mobile phone calls,cheaper credit cards.:hihi:.Have a read and see what you think. http://www.proeuropa.org.uk/twelevereasons These are not good enough reasons for staying in for me compared to the reasons for leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Equato Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Nov 2014 Britain is the most prosperous of the big economies in the European Union, a major report finds today, but is still behind countries like Switzerland and Norway which chose not to join the bloc. The survey also found that the UK is a world-leader for entrepreneurship, coming 8th in the list. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11204578/Britain-ahead-of-Germany-in-rich-league.html Its surprising that some people still think that the UK is a basket case that can only survive under the EU umbrella. Makes you wonder how countries with smaller GDP than the UK, you know, industrial midgets like Brazil manage to survive despite not being in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASGOWOODS Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 So you believe that the €3 billion subsidies given to farmers should disappear overnight? Won't this lead to more expensive food? What about the €1 billion given to research, surely cutting this will have a detrimental effect upon the country? Maybe they're feeling a little guilty for destroying the Scottish fishing industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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