EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[truman]

Food from outside the EU will have to be shipped from further away and is likely to be from places with lower quality standards.

 

The trade deficit is not that great actually:

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/EUOverseasTrade/Pages/EuOTS.aspx

 

In April 2015 the value of exports (EU and non-EU) decreased to £26.4bn, and imports (EU and non-EU) also decreased to £33.3bn, compared with last month. Consequently the UK is a net importer this month, with imports exceeding exports by £6.8 billion.

 

The UK is replacable

 

Multiply that over a year...nearly 84 billion..

[unbeliever]

It's because of one important thing that no pro-exit bod will ever tell you. If you exit the EU and say join the EEA then fisheries and agriculture are not covered by any free trade agreement. We'd have to negotiate on every single foodstuff that we might export to or import from the EU.

 

Our agricultural sector would be plunged into chaos.

 

We have at least 2 years to make sensible arrangements on these matters and a big bag of money saved just through direct contributions to deal with any such issues.

 

 

Does anybody on the "In" side have anything positive to say about the EU?

What good does the EU do that sensible free trade agreements don't?

So far it just seems to be rather unlikely scenarios about potential self-destructive spiteful economic punishments from our former EU partners.

 

I'm making the case here to preserve and restore the accountability of the UK government to the UK people and the restoration of genuine parliamentary democracy gradually being given away to distant bureaucrats and technocrats.

 

Doesn't anybody else want to be able to vote for bad things to be changed at election time?

We have very limited such power now, and slowly but surely more is slipping away.

 

---------- Post added 11-06-2015 at 13:24 ----------

 

No, if we were outside the EU and in the EEA instead all the same laws apply (except for fisheries and agriculture).

 

The only way to try and avoid them is to leave the single market totally but even then for every trade agreement you tried to negotiate with the EU then the EU would insist on us meeting their standards, as it does now with all other countries that trade with it.

 

Again, you will never be told that by the pro-exit crew.

 

i don't want to stay in the EEA either, but it's better than being sucked into the EUSSR, so I'll take it at a stretch.

[I1L2T3]

So we accept a badly run, unaccountable, corrupt super-state gradually taking more and more control of our lives and of our laws because there's a remote chance they'll initiate a short term, self destructive protectionist response if we leave?

Really?

 

Nope, I never said any of that.

 

I'm just outlining the risks for the UK post-EU exit. Your risk assessments seems to be 'nah, that won't happen'

[unbeliever]

Nope, I never said any of that.

 

I'm just outlining the risks for the UK post-EU exit. Your risk assessments seems to be 'nah, that won't happen'

 

It's unlikely, but not impossible that one or more of your risks will be realised.

The arguments for exit are rather more existential than limited theoretical trade problems.

[Havanaclub]

Does anybody on the "In" side have anything positive to say about the EU?

What good does the EU do that sensible free trade agreements don't?

So far it just seems to be rather unlikely scenarios about potential self-destructive spiteful economic punishments from our former EU partners.

 

The main reason the EU was created was to dampen nationalism and stop wars in Europe. People often forget that this was it's primary aim. To that degree it has been a massive success. Like Merkel said "peace and prosperity of Europe could not be guaranteed".

 

Leaving the EU is not just about trade, it's about maintaining a level playing field for citizens. If the counties and people of the EU can't make compromises on the little things, then the big things will rip us apart.

[truman]

Nope, I never said any of that.

 

I'm just outlining the risks for the UK post-EU exit. Your risk assessments seems to be 'nah, that won't happen'

 

Are there no risks involved in remaining in the EU?

[tzijlstra]

We have at least 2 years to make sensible arrangements on these matters and a big bag of money saved just through direct contributions to deal with any such issues.

 

 

Does anybody on the "In" side have anything positive to say about the EU?

What good does the EU do that sensible free trade agreements don't?

So far it just seems to be rather unlikely scenarios about potential self-destructive spiteful economic punishments from our former EU partners.

 

I'm making the case here to preserve and restore the accountability of the UK government to the UK people and the restoration of genuine parliamentary democracy gradually being given away to distant bureaucrats and technocrats.

 

Doesn't anybody else want to be able to vote for bad things to be changed at election time?

We have very limited such power now, and slowly but surely more is slipping away.

 

---------- Post added 11-06-2015 at 13:24 ----------

 

 

i don't want to stay in the EEA either, but it's better than being sucked into the EUSSR, so I'll take it at a stretch.

 

As you were wondering what side I was on regarding trade deficits (for whatever reason...) let me make that abundantly clear by explaining what the advantage of being in the EU for the UK is.

 

Global influence, participation in a shared single market (which is entirely different from a free trade zone), unlimited access to a shared quality workforce, hassle-free travel and trade, joined defence, collective bargaining, unified standards, ability to fine-tune resources between members, the power to withstand global financial institutions domineering trade, shared police and intelligence resources, established product standards, established labour standards, shared border control and so on.

 

But of course, all that pales in comparison to the power of self-determination (which is such a wonderfully glorified idea in a nation where the government is formed with a minority mandate) and the possibility of throwing a few Roma out of the country.

[unbeliever]

As you were wondering what side I was on regarding trade deficits (for whatever reason...) let me make that abundantly clear by explaining what the advantage of being in the EU for the UK is.

 

Global influence, participation in a shared single market (which is entirely different from a free trade zone), unlimited access to a shared quality workforce, hassle-free travel and trade, joined defence, collective bargaining, unified standards, ability to fine-tune resources between members, the power to withstand global financial institutions domineering trade, shared police and intelligence resources, established product standards, established labour standards, shared border control and so on.

 

But of course, all that pales in comparison to the power of self-determination (which is such a wonderfully glorified idea in a nation where the government is formed with a minority mandate) and the possibility of throwing a few Roma out of the country.

 

We didn't have global influence as a g7 member and one of the 5 permanent members of the UN security council?

 

None of these supposed advantages of membership is unavailable to us outside the EU. Some of them are actually due to non-EU arrangements such as NATO.

We are free to enter into co-operative agreements with any other state without or without the EU. We don't need the EU for any of this stuff.

 

You mentioned "standards" 3 times. I'm not keen on this being overly centralised as standards have to cater to local culture etc.

 

Our government is at least determined by the people. I was sad to lose the AV referendum, but the people have spoken and that's that. There's actually nothing morally wrong with a system based on the idea that the electors choose a representative rather than a party.

Who determines EU policy?

 

For me this is not about immigration. But "a few Roma". That's some sort of joke right?

[L00b]

What?

Did you just switch sides?

How does pricing themselves out of the UK market help EU manufacturers?

Looks like you misunderstood me: the UK exiting means its exports (to the EU) become non-EU imports to EU customers, so in terms of competitiveness, treated level with comparative exports from e.g. the US, Chinese, Norway, Switzerland, etc.

 

Are you familiar with the expression "non-tariff barriers"? I suggest you look it up

 

For EU competitors, that's a market bonanza (EU customers that used to buy from the UK when intra-EU) the like of which they haven't seen in decades. Particularly services...which is most of what the UK exports to the EU, and most services are commodities these days.

 

As I1L2T3 noted sometime earlier, the UK is not indispensable to its EU customers, very far from it.

 

None of the above is "limited theoretical trade problems", it's basic economics that can verified anytime of any day the world over. Including in the EU and the EFTA.

 

Re. "changing sides", you're still not getting it (and I very much doubt you ever will, tbh): you need to see things from both sides to reach an informed decision.

Edited June 11, 2015 by L00b

[I1L2T3]

It's unlikely, but not impossible that one or more of your risks will be realised.

The arguments for exit are rather more existential than limited theoretical trade problems.

 

They are real risks. Ignore them if you want but the UK is stronger within the EU. If we leave we'll have minimal clout when dealing with the likes of China and India and the more those economies grow the worse it will be for us. Loss of access to the EU free market. Loss of inward investment. The risks are myriad.

 

---------- Post added 11-06-2015 at 14:17 ----------

 

Are there no risks involved in remaining in the EU?

 

From a trade perspective, not really.

 

The risk that we will be sucked into political integration is minimal. As I've stated it should be clear now that is never going to happen because the one thing that really underpins it (the Euro) will never be adopted by the UK. We are seeing, I think, the final acceptance of this by EU leaders and I expect the landscape to change.

 

It's really what Cameron's renegotiation is all about and I think he is going to surprise a lot of people. The referendum will be a foregone conclusion.