L00b Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I'm not sure what they are doing on the borders at the other side to stop migrants entering, do you know?France re-established ad hoc customs checks on its eastern borders since late Summer 2015, made permanent since the November Paris attacks. No inkling that they'll stop anytime soon, as the Gvt's emergency powers were just re-conducted to May 2016 last week, and my tea leaves say that they'll remain on until year end at least. Still, it's a long-a55 border to police, from the Med to Calais. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Unless something changes quickly I'd be very surprised if there was an IN vote. I wish that were so, but with the machinery of government behind the IN campaign and an endless supply of hypothetical problems being conjured up to strike fear into the undecideds, the OUT folk have a hell of a fight on their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I wish that were so, but with the machinery of government behind the IN campaign and an endless supply of hypothetical problems being conjured up to strike fear into the undecideds, the OUT folk have a hell of a fight on their hands. Fear-mongering is a two way street. Lets not forget Gove's claim that the treaty may be challenged and not enacted, or IDS's "warning" about Paris style terrorists attacks in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Equato Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) They are definitely tinkering around the edges with the Calais Jungle clearing but the Dunkirk Jungle is sizing upwards nicely. I'm not sure what they are doing on the borders at the other side to stop migrants entering, do you know? Not really much of a solution putting internal borders up. I read NATO were going to start patrolling the waters between Turkey and Greece to intercept migrants and "Return them to Turkey" but I would have thought that as soon as they clamber aboard the Royal Navy frigate they would claim asylum and legally we would be forced to bring them to the EU anyway, might as well save time and have each frigate crewed with human rights lawyers. Unless something changes quickly I'd be very surprised if there was an IN vote. It will be in (unfortunately)barring a major, unforseeable 'game changer'. Edited February 25, 2016 by Brian Equato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Fear-mongering is a two way street. Lets not forget Gove's claim that the treaty may be challenged and not enacted, or IDS's "warning" about Paris style terrorists attacks in the UK. No denying that. There is also a message of hope from the OUT side though. That liberated from the EU, our people will have a previously suppressed opportunity to thrive. Maybe by observer bias is showing, but from the IN campaign I see only fear. To be honest, part of my desire for OUT is motivated by a kind of fear. That as the grand European project marches on as it has for decades, we will become part of a nation of Europe. Whilst that goes against my preference, it's not a huge problem in of itself if the new nation is a full, functional democracy. It could be, but it's not yet. My vote in European elections does not seem to play a part in determining the executive of the EU. This is vital. With a prospective nation of this size, probably the only practical thing would be to directly elect the executive in a separate multi-stage or AV type election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Your faith is misplaced. Politicians do not give up power unless they have no choice. The EU is not going to hand back the non-trade related powers it has snatched from member states unless there is lethal threat i.e. members willing to break up the union unless the terms of membership are radically changed. The EU currently believe they can stare us down and we will capitulate as did Greece. I hope this country show we have more backbone than that. If we make a stand then others will follow and we'll get real change. Capitulate and nothing changes... at least until the far-right take over. ---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 10:23 ---------- Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Don't do it. Re bib. Surely if we make the stand you are advocating, we will leave, in which case it wont matter to us if there is any change within the EU, as we will not be in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Re bib. Surely if we make the stand you are advocating, we will leave, in which case it wont matter to us if there is any change within the EU, as we will not be in it. A prosperous EU on our doorstep is in our interests in or out. The Lisbon treaty terms would allow us to re-enter later if the EU is being satisfactorily run, and that's what the people want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 A prosperous EU on our doorstep is in our interests in or out. The Lisbon treaty terms would allow us to re-enter later if the EU is being satisfactorily run, and that's what the people want. And we'll have missed out on the chance to be a part of that prosperity. If we rejoin a prosperous EU, would we get the opt out terms we have now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 And we'll have missed out on the chance to be a part of that prosperity. It will still benefit us in or out. Not as much out as it would have in. As I said we do have the option to rejoin. We're not burning any bridges. In the far more likely event that it all comes crashing down, being out will insulate us to an extent and we'll be in a stronger position to assist them in recovering. ---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 11:20 ---------- If we rejoin a prosperous EU, would we get the opt out terms we have now? Doubtful. We'd have to go all in. Pay standard membership rates, join the Euro etc. This is surely better anyway. If we're going to be in we should go the whole way. This half-in, half-out rubbish is half the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 It will still benefit us in or out. Not as much out as it would have in. As I said we do have the option to rejoin. We're not burning any bridges. In the far more likely event that it all comes crashing down, being out will insulate us to an extent and we'll be in a stronger position to assist them in recovering. ---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 11:20 ---------- Doubtful. We'd have to go all in. Pay standard membership rates, join the Euro etc. This is surely better anyway. If we're going to be in we should go the whole way. This half-in, half-out rubbish is half the problem. Re bib. We're not burning any bridges if we vote to stay in, either. We can still leave anytime we want if the situation doesn't suit us in future. Or we could go in even further if it suited. We have more bargaining clout (whatever we decide/prefer) while we are in than we ever would if we are outside considering or wanting to rejoin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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