EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[JFKvsNixon]

Well, this is likely to remain conjecture forever and longer, since Merkel unilaterally broke the consensus that is the EU decision-making process about this thorny issue in the first place, and has been politicking ever since to ensure that it stays broken, eventually forcing EU member states like Hungary, Austria, Macedonia and more to go "f*** it, we'll do it our own way, then".

 

But since this thread is specifically about the UK, given that the very same immigration thorny issue is effectively what forced Cameron into giving that very ball referendum, do you really think that, in the absence of an EU, the British government would have done "nothing more than stand around shrug their shoulders and expect someone else to sort the problem out"?

 

Bear in mind that the UK, had it been out of the EU, would have had years of economic immigration at substantially similar levels.

 

Anecdotally, I came to the UK in 1994 myself, years and years before the East Europeans, and already I was far from alone seeking better fortunes here (I was part of what the French were calling -already then- their brain drain...it's been unending, in France and elsewhere throughout the EU, ever since - lastly quite dramatically on the back of the 2008 recession).

Unless it was all hot air (or outright lies) by Cameron, GB is helping to fund the UN camps peripherally about Syria with a sizeable chunk of the foreign aid budget

 

Which is how it should be, with hand-picking (and vetting) cases deserving of asylum. Rather than let 740,000-ish (74% estimate of 1m migrants) military-age young males trample and quasi-rampage their way across most of continental Europe shopping around for the best benefits package going. If that is all they've come for, that is (which we don't know, since none have been vetted).

 

I edited my post, because I realised that it wasn't clear that I was criticising European leaders of their national parliaments as opposed to only the UK leaders.

 

I agree that Merkel has made her mark on history, but not in the way that she hoped because it's looking like she's going to remembered as the person who collapsed the EU.

 

I think that the only reason that Cameron had the referendum, was that it was the only way to keep the Tories from following their aged old policy of stabbing each other in the back and self imploding over the issue of Europe.

 

I agree with you about how we should be helping the UN with aid the refugee crisis, I was just countering the assumption made by many EU outers that not being the EU would insulate us from the crisis.

 

---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 13:32 ----------

 

It was the EU that introduced open borders within the EU and failed to secure the outer borders that made this mass migration possible. And it is the EU that talks of distribution quotas instead of deportations that further encourages mass migration (if you can get here, you'll be allowed to stay).

 

The notion that the EU would emerge as a new superpower is well and truly debunked. What we ended up with is a stuperpower and it is time for member states to retake control of their borders, decide their own immigration policies and to put the EU back in its' trade body box.

 

The sheer numbers and the determination of the refugees made it possible for them to pass through the closed border between the EU and outside. So I fail to see any existence of the will or the means to stop such numbers once they were in the EU. All each country seemed to want to do was shrug their shoulders and move the problem on to another country.

 

It's only now, when we are deep into the crisis that the penny has dropped and some countries are starting realise that action is needed.

[L00b]

All fair enough JFK.

I was just countering the assumption made by many EU outers that not being the EU would insulate us from the crisis.

I'm not sure that many (of those debating the issue with at least some objectivity in here) have, in fairness.

 

All things considered, it's an incontrovertible fact that the UK has long, long been one of the global beacons for stability and prosperity. Those born into it and who have not known different, may not realise how powerful a force of attraction that can be, irrespective of the UK's club membership of the time (Commonwealth, EEC, EU <etc.>), to those who never had, or have lost, even semi-comparable levels of stability and prosperity. I mean, by way of example, look at Iran, Lebanon and Afghanistan in the 60s and early 70s...and contrast with now

 

That is unlikely to change anytime soon, whether the UK stays in or gets out of the EU. Neither are the migratory flows, considering what just about the whole of the Middle East and most of the northern half of Africa look like at the moment, to say nothing of the perennial (but currently heating-up) tensions between Pakistan and India, Turkey and the Saudi's increasingly louder sabre-rattling and -crossing with Putin and China's own sabre-rattling and -crossing with the US and a boatload of proxies in the South China Seas...

Edited February 25, 2016 by L00b

[JFKvsNixon]

All fair enough JFK.

I'm not sure that many (of those debating the issue with at least some objectivity in here) have, in fairness.

 

I think you make a good point here.

 

All things considered, it's an incontrovertible fact that the UK has long, long been one of the global beacons for stability and prosperity. Those born into it and who have not known different, may not realise how powerful a force of attraction that can be, irrespective of the UK's club membership of the time (Commonwealth, EEC, EU <etc.>), to those who never had, or have lost, even semi-comparable levels of stability and prosperity. I mean, by way of example, look at Iran, Lebanon and Afghanistan in the 60s and early 70s...and contrast with now

 

That is unlikely to change anytime soon, whether the UK stays in or gets out of the EU. Neither are the migratory flows, considering what just about the whole of the Middle East and most of the northern half of Africa look like at the moment, to say nothing of the perennial (but currently heating-up) tensions between Pakistan and India, Turkey and the Saudi's increasingly louder sabre-rattling and -crossing with Putin and China's own sabre-rattling and -crossing with the US and a boatload of proxies in the South China Seas...

 

I agree. The genie of globalisation is now out of the bottle and there is nothing we can do to put it back, not that I would want to. So I fear the West needs to find a solution to the problem of the 'haves' and 'have nots'. It does seem that the 'have nots' have moved on from meekly accepting their situation. It's looking like they now want some of the prosperity and the security that the West currently enjoys for themselves, and they've given up on their own government being able to provide it.

 

I'm not sure that pulling up the drawbridge or hiding behind a big wall is a viable long term solution.

[Zamo]

The sheer numbers and the determination of the refugees made it possible for them to pass through the closed border between the EU and outside. So I fail to see any existence of the will or the means to stop such numbers once they were in the EU. All each country seemed to want to do was shrug their shoulders and move the problem on to another country.

 

It's only now, when we are deep into the crisis that the penny has dropped and some countries are starting realise that action is needed.

 

If the EU had not extended beyond the remit of trade then there would be no free movement of people and each country would still have full responsible for its' own immigration and border control policies and practices. Do you really think that countries who have control of an outer EU border would have allowed over a million illegal migrants to enter their country unless they were confident that the open border arrangement would see them pass straight though?

 

The mass migration has not occurred because of the sheer numbers and determination of migrants. It has occurred because the EU has taken away the right of sovereign member states to determine and implement their own immigration and border control policies. It's interference in these non-trade related matters has left countries paralysed in fear and indecision about how to response to this illegal invasion. Prior to the EU assuming command of immigration policy, we would have seen a much stronger and effective response to this crisis i.e. the erection of more fencing, the deployment of a stronger border force, the towing back of migrant boats, the use of superior force to repel migrants trying to use force and internment and deportation for those that do slip through. If countries knew they were going to be left holding the pup then they wouldn't let the pup in.

 

---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 14:24 ----------

 

I'm not sure that pulling up the drawbridge or hiding behind a big wall is a viable long term solution.

 

Trade with new global partners is not depend on us also agreeing to take the poor off their hands. Pulling up the draw bridge to control the people we allow in, turning away those who will sap our wealth and/or risk our national security, seems like a very good idea to me. Why exactly do you think it isn't?

[foxy lady]

Trade with new global partners is not depend on us also agreeing to take the poor off their hands. Pulling up the draw bridge to control the people we allow in, turning away those who will sap our wealth and/or risk our national security, seems like a very good idea to me. Why exactly do you think it isn't?

 

It certainly works remarkably well with places like Monaco and Jersey.

[JFKvsNixon]

If the EU had not extended beyond the remit of trade then there would be no free movement of people and each country would still have full responsible for its' own immigration and border control policies and practices. Do you really think that countries who have control of an outer EU border would have allowed over a million illegal migrants to enter their country unless they were confident that the open border arrangement would see them pass straight though?

 

The mass migration has not occurred because of the sheer numbers and determination of migrants. It has occurred because the EU has taken away the right of sovereign member states to determine and implement their own immigration and border control policies. It's interference in these non-trade related matters has left countries paralysed in fear and indecision about how to response to this illegal invasion. Prior to the EU assuming command of immigration policy, we would have seen a much stronger and effective response to this crisis i.e. the erection of more fencing, the deployment of a stronger border force, the towing back of migrant boats, the use of superior force to repel migrants trying to use force and internment and deportation for those that do slip through. If countries knew they were going to be left holding the pup then they wouldn't let the pup in.

 

It's all speculation I know, but even without the EU's border policies I imagine that the European national leaders poor leadership would have still prevailed, with each country wanting to pass the problem on to the next.

 

I just do not believe that the will would have existed that would have been required to physically turn make the numbers of refugees that decided to make the journey.

 

---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 15:00 ----------

 

Trade with new global partners is not depend on us also agreeing to take the poor off their hands. Pulling up the draw bridge to control the people we allow in, turning away those who will sap our wealth and/or risk our national security, seems like a very good idea to me. Why exactly do you think it isn't?

 

Our relationships with our neighbours will go a long way to deciding our trading agreements, and how we meet our responsibilities will define those relationships. So I do think that they'll have a bearing.

 

It's not the idea of pulling up the drawbridge that I have issue with, it's the practicalities of it. Again I do not believe that in a liberal society that we'll tolerate the methods needed to accomplish it, so I just do not think we could do it effectively.

Edited February 25, 2016 by JFKvsNixon

[nightrider]

It's not a problem what they call a club. It's who you accept as members that makes the difference.

 

---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 12:42 ----------

 

 

Without the EU the migrants would have faced border controls like the one that stopped me when I tried to cross into Slovenia. The member states are now re-establishing their border fences and border controls. We have the English Channel as our number one assett and we don't need some German deciding for us who is allowed to cross it.

 

Folk should not be able to cross an entire continent without a passport or documents, and they certainly shouldn't be given free reign to break in to lorries and attempt to enter the UK without an invitation.

 

They still will be able to if we leave the EU. I don't see how leaving the EU has any impact on how many non-EU illegal immigrants enter or try to enter the UK. Even in the EU currently we still have our own borders, and that will be the same if we leave.

 

Now if you mean EU migrants, leaving the EU will impact that because the UK could decide to refuse them entry (though this might be foolhardy, because many UK people work in EU countries).

[Zamo]

It's all speculation I know, but even without the EU's border policies I imagine that the European national leaders poor leadership would have still prevailed, with each country wanting to pass the problem on to the next.

 

I just do not believe that the will would have existed that would have been required to physically turn make the numbers of refugees that decided to make the journey.

 

Have you noticed that all the action to try and contain the migrant crisis is happening despite the EU and not because of it? The EU contribution has been to bung a bribe to Turkey in the hope that they can stem the flow without the EU having to take any tough decisions or get it's hands dirty. The EU is pathetic and this crisis is a perfect example of why the EU should focus on trade and leave matters such as immigration and law making for individual countries to decide. We need to do our bit to make this happen by voting to leave.

 

---------- Post added 25-02-2016 at 15:27 ----------

 

It's not the idea of pulling up the drawbridge that I have issue with, it's the practicalities of it. Again I do not believe that in a liberal society that we'll tolerate the methods needed to accomplish it, so I just do not think we could do it effectively.

 

You don't think people would stand for us returning failed asylum seekers to the country they came from? Or turning away EU citizens that aren't going to make a positive financial contribution? Or removing the benefit incentives that make migrants want to come here? I think you will find that all these things can be implemented effectively and with majority support.

[JFKvsNixon]

Have you noticed that all the action to try and contain the migrant crisis is happening despite the EU and not because of it? The EU contribution has been to bung a bribe to Turkey in the hope that they can stem the flow without the EU having to take any tough decisions or get it's hands dirty. The EU is pathetic and this crisis is a perfect example of why the EU should focus on trade and leave matters such as immigration and law making for individual countries to decide. We need to do our bit to make this happen by voting to leave.

 

Once again I'm back to my point of asking, surely the blame should be laid on the feet of the leaders of the European nations not the EU?

 

You don't think people would stand for us returning failed asylum seekers to the country they came from? Or turning away EU citizens that aren't going to make a positive financial contribution? Or removing the benefit incentives that make migrants want to come here? I think you will find that all these things can be implemented effectively and with majority support.

 

I don't think you quite understood my point, I was taking about the measures that are literally needed to hold back the sheer numbers of desperate refugees effectively.

[ANGELFIRE1]

The EU is like Pandora's box, and the lid has now been removed.

 

Angel1.