MikeFrank Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Where do you get the idea that 'they' need 'us' far more than we need them? 'They' need to stand firm to assure other EU states don't leave upon a referendum. 'They' are 'our' biggest export partner. 'Our' biggest businesses are pretty much universally against a them and us debate, wanting them to remain us. Try and substantiate what you are saying, bcause so far all I hear you say is that the relatively overpriced UK mobile contracts are going to go up even more due to this deal, hav you got evidence for that? Its basic really. If I sell you more than you sell me, I won't charge you any tariffs because I would be worse off. I appreciate all the big businesses who wanted us to join the Euro want us to stay in. ---------- Post added 01-05-2016 at 22:08 ---------- On the infrastructure, que sera sera. I thought it was pretty clearly implied. I don't think Vodafone are overcharging here, I do think they have been raking it in on unfair roaming charges though. How anybody can argue against that when you used to get bills for 10£ after downloading your e-mails whilst on a business trip is completely beyond me. And for me this was on a T-Mobile contract in Germany, where they are HQed, you explain to me how that is anything other than abusing a loophole in the market? On the US, odd statement for someone who wants to kerb free market access yet uses it here as an argument against the EU, in particular because the internet infrastructure in Europe is lightyears ahead of that in the US thanks to numerous government initiatives (including the EU) to fund roll-out of fibre. You know all those rural villages getting connected by BT? EU money. If anyone downloads emails to their phone they are pretty silly. Just about all hotels and apartment reception have computers. Its about a Euro for 15 minutes I think. ---------- Post added 01-05-2016 at 22:13 ---------- The Polls look pretty even. I assume that they phone random people to see how they'll vote, but they're missing something I think. I'm not sure if they have some kind of weighting. No doubt everyone who voted UKIP in the GE will vote to leave and I'm sure they will go out and vote, there is no variation in this sample of voters. So that's 5m start for the leave campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Its basic really. If I sell you more than you sell me, I won't charge you any tariffs because I would be worse off. I appreciate all the big businesses who wanted us to join the Euro want us to stay in. ---------- Post added 01-05-2016 at 22:08 ---------- If anyone downloads emails to their phone they are pretty silly. Just about all hotels and apartment reception have computers. Its about a Euro for 15 minutes I think. ---------- Post added 01-05-2016 at 22:13 ---------- The Polls look pretty even. I assume that they phone random people to see how they'll vote, but they're missing something I think. I'm not sure if they have some kind of weighting. No doubt everyone who voted UKIP in the GE will vote to leave and I'm sure they will go out and vote, there is no variation in this sample of voters. So that's 5m start for the leave campaign. Odds for leave vote have come in a bit, from 5/2 to 9/4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 You have no basis for suggesting I want to "kerb free market access". The EU "single market" is not an exercise in free markets as this regulation clearly shows. We've been over this in the past, a brief reminder, you stated (paraphrasing) - and if that hurts the economy than I am prepared to take it on the chin. On the "EU money" spent on internet infrastructure. That's our money. Not the EU's money. There is no such thing as EU money. The EU has no money. It spends the money of European tax payers with little consultation. It's perfectly clear that your idea of good economics and social policy is largely consistent with the EU's ideas. Mine isn't. This is why you want to be a citizen of the EU and I don't. Regulation of markets should be minimal. Not zero. Don't let me find 3 posts later you telling me I'm against all government regulation regarding trade. That's not what I'm saying. Regulation costs growth. The absence of regulation leads to monopolies and chaos. But over-regulation is like a tax which raises no revenue. It's daft. Ask ten people at Robin Hood airport whether they think it is daft that they can now/soon use their phone in Europe just like they can at home. You arguing that this is bad legislation is daft and entirely fuelled by your dislike of the EU. All this is rather beside the point anyway. We didn't need to be members of the EU to apply this regulation. Some Brexiters would have approved. Others not. I'm not sure whether it would have happened or not in an independent UK. I don't really care. I want these decisions make by a properly accountable government. You think the EU meets this standard. I don't. I also don't think that the UK people should have the crazy hybrid corporatism-socialism politics which infests the EU when almost nobody in the UK would vote for it. Old ground, furrowed. Its basic really. If I sell you more than you sell me, I won't charge you any tariffs because I would be worse off. I appreciate all the big businesses who wanted us to join the Euro want us to stay in. Except it isn't that simple, the EU doesn't want Brexit to lead to other referenda to leave with member-states. The UK has to import stuff, just as the EU does from the UK. Any statement of simplicity is just miles besides the reality. If anyone downloads emails to their phone they are pretty silly. Just about all hotels and apartment reception have computers. Its about a Euro for 15 minutes I think. It is pretty clear you haven't worked in an environment where you are travelling half the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFrank Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 We've been over this in the past, a brief reminder, you stated (paraphrasing) - and if that hurts the economy than I am prepared to take it on the chin. Ask ten people at Robin Hood airport whether they think it is daft that they can now/soon use their phone in Europe just like they can at home. You arguing that this is bad legislation is daft and entirely fuelled by your dislike of the EU. Old ground, furrowed. Except it isn't that simple, the EU doesn't want Brexit to lead to other referenda to leave with member-states. It is pretty clear you haven't worked in an environment where you are travelling half the time. Oh so it's in their favour for us to stay in. Makes you wonder if they'll make stuff up to ensure this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 We've been over this in the past, a brief reminder, you stated (paraphrasing) - and if that hurts the economy than I am prepared to take it on the chin. I also said. In the very same post. That I'm confident it won't hurt the economy. ---------- Post added 02-05-2016 at 09:20 ---------- Old ground, furrowed. This is all old ground. We're still talking because we still disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 If anyone downloads emails to their phone they are pretty silly. Just about all hotels and apartment reception have computers. Its about a Euro for 15 minutes I think. Many people's phones are set to download data, such as updates for apps and emails automatically without any notification. If you knew your way around your phone it is possible to disable this and avoid the charges, many people do not know the intricacies of their phone so they ended up being hit with a big bill. If size of the bill was proportional with the cost to the network providers, then I don't think that many would have a valid complaint about the situation. The key issue was that this was not the case, so it became clear that it was a situation of the network providers taking advantage of their customers ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Ask ten people at Robin Hood airport whether they think it is daft that they can now/soon use their phone in Europe just like they can at home. You arguing that this is bad legislation is daft and entirely fuelled by your dislike of the EU. I've always maintained that competition is a far better means of getting good value from the market than regulation. Therefore my instinct is that this regulation is needless meddling. It's going to reduce roaming costs for those who roam at the expense of everybody else. Nice of course for people who work for the EU who probably get hit by it a lot. Most people however rarely use their phones abroad. Those who do use their phones abroad routinely are more likely to be affluent. Where as phone users in general are not. So in fact what's been done here is a regressive step using law to make everybody pay for a service used far more by an affluent minority. Still in favour? ---------- Post added 02-05-2016 at 09:26 ---------- Many people's phones are set to download data, such as updates for apps and emails automatically without any notification. If you knew your way around your phone it is possible to disable this and avoid the charges, many people do not know the intricacies of their phone so they ended up being hit with a big bill. If size of the bill was proportional with the cost to the network providers, then I don't think that many would have a valid complaint about the situation. The key issue was that this was not the case, so it became clear that it was a situation of the network providers taking advantage of their customers ignorance. Surely this could have been resolved by informing people. Or even requiring the phone companies to inform people. My phone came with data roaming turned off by default. How about yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Surely this could have been resolved by informing people. Or even requiring the phone companies to inform people. My phone came with data roaming turned off by default. How about yours? I have no idea how my phone arrived because the first thing I did was change all the settings. I admit that it is unfortunate that the EU government had to intervene in this matter, but if you look at the history of the this issue, it wasn't the case of heavy handedness by the EU government. They went through a process of dialogue and tried to come to some sort of agreement, but the network providers did not seem willing to change their practice, which left many people unaware that they had run up bills of hundreds or even thousands of pounds. Now as I said earlier, if these bills were somehow related to the costs, then it wouldn't be an issue, but it was clearly a case of the network providers profiteering from the ignorance of their customers. Regulation was clearly needed. I'm disappointed that our own national government didn't do more to act in our interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I have no idea how my phone arrived because the first thing I did was change all the settings. I admit that it is unfortunate that the EU government had to intervene in this matter, but if you look at the history of the this issue, it wasn't the case of heavy handedness by the EU government. They went through a process of dialogue and tried to come to some sort of agreement, but the network providers did not seem willing to change their practice, which left many people unaware that they had run up bills of hundreds or even thousands of pounds. Now as I said earlier, if these bills were somehow related to the costs, then it wouldn't be an issue, but it was clearly a case of the network providers profiteering from the ignorance of their customers. Regulation was clearly needed. I'm disappointed that our own national government didn't do more to act in our interests. A quick google shows that iPhones have data roaming off by default. I can't find similar information on Android or Windows phones. Maybe they vary. I can recall receiving texts in the past on my phone whenever entering a foreign network. They included a statement of the various charges I could expect amongst them the data charges. Are these not standard? Have they stopped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 A quick google shows that iPhones have data roaming off by default. I can't find similar information on Android or Windows phones. Maybe they vary. I can recall receiving texts in the past on my phone whenever entering a foreign network. They included a statement of the various charges I could expect amongst them the data charges. Are these not standard? Have they stopped? OK, lets look at this from the other point of view rather split hairs over the details. Why did the network providers charge so much money whenever a phone was used abroad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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