EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[loraward]

There you go.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2015 at 12:19 ----------

 

 

2-tier EU. Look it up.

 

I think you should read it again because you clearly misunderstood it, you claimed that importing food and other stuff would increase in price.

 

So lets say something produced in the UK costs £1.50 now, but can be imported and sold for £1.40. If your prediction comes true then the cost of the imported item might go up top to £1.60. Meaning the UK produced item is now cheaper even though its price hasn't changed. So the UK produced item is now cheaper than the new higher price of the imported item, which would create more UK jobs to make up for the jobs you claim will be lost.

[I1L2T3]

Not quite.

The "damage" from leaving the EU will in my opinion be far less than the damage from staying in.

 

Europe is becoming a single state. You seem to think this is a good idea, but the only reason the UK looks like voting to stay in is that they have been conned into thinking that either it isn't or we won't be included. I don't believe that. Do you?

 

If the pro-EU people admitted that we are to become absorbed into the country of Europe, there's no way they could win the referendum. If the UK votes to stay in, we will be doing so based on a lie.

 

Perhaps you think this lie is okay as you believe they'd be better off in the European super-state and that justifies it?

 

You keep pushing this Europe is becoming a single state line, and yes it might be true for some of the core countries that have an appetite for it. There is no requirement for us to fully participate in that core integration and the practical reality is that we cannot anyway, the key reason being that we'll never adopt the Euro. That alarm bell has been sounding since our disastrous exit from ERM in 1992 so for nearly 23 years the EU has known we are not going to be fully integrated in the same way as say France or Germany.

 

In reality all that is needed is a formalisation of that position, allowing us to focus primarily on remaining part of the trading bloc.

 

The rest of your argument revolves around leaps into the unknown. Firstly around a go it alone stance in trading terms, the results of which are completely unpredictable given the rapidly evolving nature of global trade. A huge gamble. The other main thread of the argument supposes that the UK will be governed better outside the EU. Sorry but there are no guarantees that it will be. None at all.

 

The case for EU exit is wafer thin at best.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2015 at 13:14 ----------

 

I think you should read it again because you clearly misunderstood it, you claimed that importing food and other stuff would increase in price.

 

So lets say something produced in the UK costs £1.50 now, but can be imported and sold for £1.40. If your prediction comes true then the cost of the imported item might go up top to £1.60. Meaning the UK produced item is now cheaper even though its price hasn't changed. So the UK produced item is now cheaper than the new higher price of the imported item, which would create more UK jobs to make up for the jobs you claim will be lost.

 

The evidence from the USA, which is allowed to make its own free trade deals with the rest of the world, is that it lost half its manufacturing jobs between 1987 and 2010 along with one third of its large manufacturing plant between 2001-10.

 

That is the reality of being able to make your own trade deals in a globalised free market trading environment.

 

Once we have to start making our own trade deals with the likes of China we will be bled dry. That's the evidence.

Edited June 13, 2015 by I1L2T3

[loraward]

You keep pushing this Europe is becoming a single state line, and yes it might be true for some of the core countries that have an appetite for it. There is no requirement for us to fully participate in that core integration and the practical reality is that we cannot anyway, the key reason being that we'll never adopt the Euro. That alarm bell has been sounding since our disastrous exit from ERM in 1992 so for nearly 23 years the EU has known we are not going to be fully integrated in the same way as say France or Germany.

 

In reality all that is needed is a formalisation of that position, allowing us to focus primarily on remaining part of the trading bloc.

 

The rest of your argument revolves around leaps into the unknown. Firstly around a go it alone stance in trading terms, the results of which are completely unpredictable given the rapidly evolving nature of global trade. A huge gamble. The other main thread of the argument supposes that the UK will be governed better outside the EU. Sorry but there are no guarantees that it will be. None at all.

 

The case for EU exit is wafer thin at best.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2015 at 13:14 ----------

 

 

The evidence from the USA, which is allowed to make its own free trade deals with the rest of the world, is that it lost half its manufacturing jobs between 1987 and 2010 along with one third of its large manufacturing plant between 2001-10.

 

That is the reality of being able to make your own trade deals in a globalised free market trading environment.

 

Once we have to start making our own trade deals with the likes of China we will be bled dry. That's the evidence.

 

So are you saying that imports will become cheaper and personally I think trading with China has an environmental cost that is too high.

[Havanaclub]

I think you should read it again because you clearly misunderstood it, you claimed that importing food and other stuff would increase in price.

 

So lets say something produced in the UK costs £1.50 now, but can be imported and sold for £1.40. If your prediction comes true then the cost of the imported item might go up top to £1.60. Meaning the UK produced item is now cheaper even though its price hasn't changed. So the UK produced item is now cheaper than the new higher price of the imported item, which would create more UK jobs to make up for the jobs you claim will be lost.

 

 

 

By the way we don't have enough resources in the UK to feed ourselves, we rely on imports. And for the food we do produce, we rely on cheap labour ironically mostly from the EU.

 

The price of food will increase, saying it won't is just denying the facts. If we leave the EU both imported and home grown food will go up. The food in your fridge may come from South Africa, Costa Rica, Egypt or Spain... It doesn't matter where the source, the economy of scale for large companies to import EU wide makes the price very cheap.

 

Leaving the EU would be a huge disaster for the price of food and other goods.

[I1L2T3]

So are you saying that imports will become cheaper and personally I think trading with China has an environmental cost that is too high.

 

Well, who knows. Yes we could get cheaper imports from China but no guarantee that China would open up markets in return. China could quite reasonably demand other things in return. Examples could be:

 

1. We agree to let 250,000 Chinese students in a year

2. We sign contracts with Chinese companies for big projects.

3. We allow Chinese to buy infrastructure and state assets at reduced prices

4. We increase freedom for Chinese to buy other assets, e.g. private property

5. They offer to buy our debt but we have to pay increased interest rates.

 

They could quite reasonably demand all this and more that would currently not be permitted under EU law. And then there are the externalities you mention like increased global pollution, like the idea that we export our own manufacturing pollution to other countries while hypocritically trying to make out our own country is greener than ever.

 

Not many people realise that the EU is a limiter on many of the worst excesses of these things. It could do better of course but it protects us in ways many don't understand.

[loraward]

By the way we don't have enough resources in the UK to feed ourselves, we rely on imports. And for the food we do produce, we rely on cheap labour ironically mostly from the EU.

 

The price of food will increase, saying it won't is just denying the facts. If we leave the EU both imported and home grown food will go up. The food in your fridge may come from South Africa, Costa Rica, Egypt or Spain... It doesn't matter where the source, the economy of scale for large companies to import EU wide makes the price very cheap.

 

Leaving the EU would be a huge disaster for the price of food and other goods.

 

I know we don't have enough resources and that is one to cut immigration.

I haven't said food will be cheaper or that it won't increase, and it will continue to increase as the UK and global population increases.

Large UK companies will still be able to buy stuff from around the world but won't have as much red tape to deal with. How does being in the EU make the good that a supermarket imports cheaper?

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2015 at 14:01 ----------

 

Well, who knows. Yes we could get cheaper imports from China but no guarantee that China would open up markets in return. China could quite reasonably demand other things in return. Examples could be:

 

1. We agree to let 250,000 Chinese students in a year

2. We sign contracts with Chinese companies for big projects.

3. We allow Chinese to buy infrastructure and state assets at reduced prices

4. We increase freedom for Chinese to buy other assets, e.g. private property

5. They offer to buy our debt but we have to pay increased interest rates.

 

They could quite reasonably demand all this and more that would currently not be permitted under EU law. And then there are the externalities you mention like increased global pollution, like the idea that we export our own manufacturing pollution to other countries while hypocritically trying to make out our own country is greener than ever.

 

Not many people realise that the EU is a limiter on many of the worst excesses of these things. It could do better of course but it protects us in ways many don't understand.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't import anything at all from China and the more demands they place on a trade deal, the more likley it will be that those goods can be produced here for less.

 

The EU doesn't stop us exporting our own pollution it actually encourages it.

Edited June 13, 2015 by loraward

[Havanaclub]

I know we don't have enough resources and that is one to cut immigration.

I haven't said food will be cheaper or that it won't increase, and it will continue to increase as the UK and global population increases.

Large UK companies will still be able to buy stuff from around the world but won't have as much red tape to deal with. How does being in the EU make the good that a supermarket imports cheaper?

 

 

Tell me what red tape there is please.

[loraward]

Tell me what red tape there is please.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce

 

http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/cutting-red-tape-must-be-at-the-heart-of-any-eu-reform-agenda/

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2458354/3-600-new-laws-3-years-EU-strangles-UK-firms.html

[unbeliever]

There you go.

 

 

2-tier EU. Look it up.

 

I'm aware of it.

 

As far as I can tell this is just a vague idea that's being floated. If not, which treaty is it in?

 

I seriously doubt that this will be anything other than a 2-speed Europe with both "tiers" headed for the same destination. Am I wrong? If so, when do they repeal the Nice treaty committing us to ever closer union?

 

I repeat, the pro-EU case is a con.

The plan is to get the UK people to vote to stay in the EU thinking that they won't get sucked into a single European state when in fact they almost certainly will. True or False?

[Havanaclub]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce

 

http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/cutting-red-tape-must-be-at-the-heart-of-any-eu-reform-agenda/

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2458354/3-600-new-laws-3-years-EU-strangles-UK-firms.html

 

What does it have to do with importing?