EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[unbeliever]

Not underestimating anything - just pointing out the 'ever closer union' isn't enshrined in law. It isn't - find the passage in the Lisbon treaty yourself then come back on here and prove that it's a law.

 

I can honestly say I've never met anybody who thinks the EU should be part of an EU superstate and that we should adopt the Euro.

 

I can't ever recall a politician saying it.

 

You are just scaremongering now.

 

You're kidding right.

 

It was Labour party policy right up until they got kicked out.

It's still Lib Dem policy.

It's also SNP policy.

It's also been Conservative policy on and off. Why else did they take us into the ERM.

 

It would be great if tzijlstra could weigh in again.

I think you two have a lot to talk about.

Edited June 13, 2015 by unbeliever

[I1L2T3]

You're kidding right.

 

It was Labour party policy right up until they got kicked out.

It's still Lib Dem policy.

It's also SNP policy.

It's also been Conservative policy on and off. Why else did they take us into the ERM.

 

They all want to keep the pound. Though they do all want to stay in the EU that is true but none has a commitment to become part of a centralised superstate.

 

Yet more scaremongering.....again

[unbeliever]

They all want to keep the pound. Though they do all want to stay in the EU that is true but none has a commitment to become part of a centralised superstate.

 

Yet more scaremongering.....again

 

Right now they do. None of them have said they'll never join. Most of them say that we eventually will join.

You said "never".

 

When the current EURO crisis has passed (If it does without the entire EU collapsing). They'll return to the policies they held before 2008.

 

This whole sub-thread is based on your assertion that the UK will never join the EURO and therefore never be pulled into a superstate. The major political parties all have a long history (only recently deviated from) of planning to join the EURO.

Your assertion that the risk of the UK joining the EURO vanished in 1992 is therefore blatantly incorrect.

 

Pressure from the EU powers on the UK government to join the EURO will continue and intensify. Whilst in parallel more powers and competencies will be transferred to the EU from the UK government with and without further treaties.

 

It is quite obviously false that the integration of the UK into the emerging European super-state has ceased. Even if it had, unless we leave the EU, it could start up again at any time.

 

It's been 40 years since the last referendum on the integration of the UK into "Europe". We have to think about the long term implications of voting to stay in now.

Edited June 13, 2015 by unbeliever
clarification.

[loraward]

Tell me what red tape there is please.

 

JCB boss says EU exit could lift burden of bureaucracy on UK businesses

 

“What is needed is a lot less red tape and bureaucracy. Some of it is costly for us and quite frankly ridiculous. Whether that means renegotiating or exiting, I don’t think it can carry on as it is. It’s a burden on our business and it’s easier selling to North America than to Europe sometimes.” He said reducing red tape for business was Cameron’s most important task when seeking concessions from other EU leaders.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/17/jcb-boss-says-eu-exit-could-lift-burden-of-bureaucracy-on-uk-businesses

[I1L2T3]

Right now they do. None of them have said they'll never join. Most of them say that we eventually will join.

You said "never".

 

When the current EURO crisis has passed (If it does without the entire EU collapsing). They'll return to the policies they held before 2008.

 

This whole sub-thread is based on your assertion that the UK will never join the EURO and therefore never be pulled into a superstate. The major political parties all have a long history (only recently deviated from) of planning to join the EURO.

Your assertion that the risk of the UK joining the EURO vanished in 1992 is therefore blatantly incorrect.

 

Pressure from the EU powers on the UK government to join the EURO will continue and intensify. Whilst in parallel more powers and competencies will be transferred to the EU from the UK government with and without further treaties.

 

It is quite obviously false that the integration of the UK into the emerging European super-state has ceased. Even if it had, unless we leave the EU, it could start up again at any time.

 

It's been 40 years since the last referendum on the integration of the UK into "Europe". We have to think about the long term implications of voting to stay in now.

 

So your argument is based on something that is unlikely to happen while advocating a leap into the unknown where you don't know what will happen.

 

Of course we have to thing of the implications of staying in, and the impacts of leaving too.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2015 at 19:20 ----------

 

JCB boss says EU exit could lift burden of bureaucracy on UK businesses

 

“What is needed is a lot less red tape and bureaucracy. Some of it is costly for us and quite frankly ridiculous. Whether that means renegotiating or exiting, I don’t think it can carry on as it is. It’s a burden on our business and it’s easier selling to North America than to Europe sometimes.” He said reducing red tape for business was Cameron’s most important task when seeking concessions from other EU leaders.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/17/jcb-boss-says-eu-exit-could-lift-burden-of-bureaucracy-on-uk-businesses

 

JCB boss says what is best for his business. Hardly a surprise.

 

What exactly is the red tape though? They never, ever say. Are they frustrated at building plant to European standards? Do they want to just build gas guzzling polluting plant that would pass standards in China or the developing world? Is that progress? What exactly are JCB moaning about because we all know that selling a digger to a German company is no more difficult than loading it on a truck and transporting it over there. So what is JCB's beef?

[unbeliever]

So your argument is based on something that is unlikely to happen while advocating a leap into the unknown where you don't know what will happen.

 

Of course we have to thing of the implications of staying in, and the impacts of leaving too.

 

 

So you agree that there remains at least some chance that the UK will join the EURO? That's progress.

I think you understand that I firmly believe that staying in the EU without joining the EURO will eventually be untenable. Unless we leave, it's a matter of when we join, not if.

 

We know what will happen if we leave the EU. There are plenty of other states in the world not involved in supranational government.

There is plenty of reason to think that UK productivity will rise once we shed the regulatory burden from Brussels.

As far as I'm aware, none of the first world countries outside the EU had to burn their furniture last winter to stay warm.

 

I take it though that you think it unlikely either that the super-state will emerge or that the UK will be part of it. Or perhaps both?

 

If you don't think the superstate will emerge, where is the EU heading. More powers are transferred from the states to the EU government each year. Is that just going to stop one day?

The UK keeps transferring powers and competencies to the EU. Surely that puts us on track to be part of the super-state. Or is that just going to stop one day?

If I'm wrong about where this is all heading, it's hard to see where else it could be going.

[GLASGOWOODS]

They all want to keep the pound. Though they do all want to stay in the EU that is true but none has a commitment to become part of a centralised superstate.

 

Yet more scaremongering.....again

 

I'm pretty sure the SNP would take the Euro with open arms.

[I1L2T3]

So you agree that there remains at least some chance that the UK will join the EURO? That's progress.

I think you understand that I firmly believe that staying in the EU without joining the EURO will eventually be untenable. Unless we leave, it's a matter of when we join, not if.

 

We know what will happen if we leave the EU. There are plenty of other states in the world not involved in supranational government.

There is plenty of reason to think that UK productivity will rise once we shed the regulatory burden from Brussels.

As far as I'm aware, none of the first world countries outside the EU had to burn their furniture last winter to stay warm.

 

I take it though that you think it unlikely either that the super-state will emerge or that the UK will be part of it. Or perhaps both?

 

If you don't think the superstate will emerge, where is the EU heading. More powers are transferred from the states to the EU government each year. Is that just going to stop one day?

The UK keeps transferring powers and competencies to the EU. Surely that puts us on track to be part of the super-state. Or is that just going to stop one day?

If I'm wrong about where this is all heading, it's hard to see where else it could be going.

 

Like Nick Clegg said when the LibDems were forced in 2008 to withdraw their commitment to join the Euro - "we won't be joining in my lifetime"

 

I firmly agree with that. Joining the Euro is decades away.

 

I think now the precedent for an EU referendum is set that we will have more of them in the future, and the triggers are going to be changes to our membership.

 

So where does that leave us. It basically means Cameron has to negotiate an agreement that doesn't commit us to the same tight integration that other countries want. He'll deliver on that no probs.

 

At the end of the day it is going to boil down to money (as it always does) and everything is going to hinge on the strength of the economic case for leaving. It's not a strong case - virtually nothing points to us being better off.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2015 at 19:40 ----------

 

I'm pretty sure the SNP would take the Euro with open arms.

 

Out of the bigger parties in Westminster they are most likely but they won't get what they want as part of the UK. There is significant opposition to it in the EU as well as we saw when questions over currency holed the SNP's referendum campaign below the waterline.

[unbeliever]

Like Nick Clegg said when the LibDems were forced in 2008 to withdraw their commitment to join the Euro - "we won't be joining in my lifetime"

 

I firmly agree with that. Joining the Euro is decades away.

 

I think now the precedent for an EU referendum is set that we will have more of them in the future, and the triggers are going to be changes to our membership.

 

So where does that leave us. It basically means Cameron has to negotiate an agreement that doesn't commit us to the same tight integration that other countries want. He'll deliver on that no probs.

 

At the end of the day it is going to boil down to money (as it always does) and everything is going to hinge on the strength of the economic case for leaving. It's not a strong case - virtually nothing points to us being better off.

 

I just don't think that's good enough. Decades away I mean.

One referendum every 42 years. In another 42 years it'll be too late.

I guess we should table this discussion until we see what Cameron gets out the the negotiations. I respect the PM, but I'm not as confident as you.

[Harrystottle]

I'm pretty sure the SNP would take the Euro with open arms.

 

I'm sure you're right. Unfortunately the way Sturgeon, Salmond and the cyber nats have carried on, the English would happily wave them toodle pip as the brave Braveheart Scots threw off the shackles of the hated English oppressors to become truly Independent; as a fraction of a percent of the EU.. errm