EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[Tomjames]

So you not a big fan the UK's democracy, how would you do things?

 

Install a Republic.

 

---------- Post added 18-05-2016 at 14:04 ----------

 

Swiss politicians can't thrust one onto them, they can only have one if the people want one.

 

Sounds good to me.

[Jukes]

Install a Republic.

 

Republics are notoriously expensive, fearfully corrupt, and unremittingly power hungry. The EU is a good example of a federal republic at work.

[unbeliever]

Republics are notoriously expensive, fearfully corrupt, and unremittingly power hungry. The EU is a good example of a federal republic at work.

 

Have to disagree with you there.

Germany is a republic.

So is France.

Let's not forget the USA either, especially if you're talking about a federation.

[Jukes]

You haven't said what you disagree with or why though Unbeliever. I believe that I'm correct in saying that British democracy is the oldest continuous democratic authority and that it is wholly unmatched by any republican effort at any time in history. It probably appears to be an anachronism when analysed at almost any period since Magna Carta, but the clunky way that it grinds on through a flexible constitution and judiciary with legal oversight by both a monarch and a parliament has brought remarkable success to a cold damp island in the Atlantic.

 

France and Germany only stopped trying to kill each other 70 years ago and the USA is still trying to kill everyone now.

[unbeliever]

You haven't said what you disagree with or why though Unbeliever. I believe that I'm correct in saying that British democracy is the oldest continuous democratic authority and that it is wholly unmatched by any republican effort at any time in history. It probably appears to be an anachronism when analysed at almost any period since Magna Carta, but the clunky way that it grinds on through a flexible constitution and judiciary with legal oversight by both a monarch and a parliament has brought remarkable success to a cold damp island in the Atlantic.

 

France and Germany only stopped trying to kill each other 70 years ago and the USA is still trying to kill everyone now.

 

You have to come up with a very specific definition of democracy to claim the UK is the oldest. It's fair enough that you like the current system. Myself I would prefer a bicameral parliament and an appointed ceremonial head of state.

[NigelFargate]

Have to disagree with you there.

Germany is a republic.

So is France.

Let's not forget the USA either, especially if you're talking about a federation.

 

The EU is not actually a federation, in that it lacks some of the key requirements of a federation. It is perhaps nearer to a confederation, which is a looser form of governance.

 

Nor is the EU a 'democracy'. In order to be a democracy, you need a demos, i.e. a people. There is not a European people in the sense of affiliation or identity. All of the attempts by the EU to create a European people (or People's Europe) have failed miserably and will probably continue to do so. This is why there will continue to be a glaring democratic deficit in the EU, regardless of how many structural changes in governance the EU makes, or tries to make.

[tzijlstra]

The EU is not actually a federation, in that it lacks some of the key requirements of a federation. It is perhaps nearer to a confederation, which is a looser form of governance.

 

Nor is the EU a 'democracy'. In order to be a democracy, you need a demos, i.e. a people. There is not a European people in the sense of affiliation or identity. All of the attempts by the EU to create a European people (or People's Europe) have failed miserably and will probably continue to do so. This is why there will continue to be a glaring democratic deficit in the EU, regardless of how many structural changes in governance the EU makes, or tries to make.

 

Not arguing about the (con)federation point, I'd like to know what you think it lacks?

 

Regarding the demos point, arguing there. If that doesn't count for the EU, it doesn't count for the UK either. There is an ever increasing amount of people who state that they are European and several studies explore the concept of European national identity.

[NigelFargate]

Not arguing about the (con)federation point, I'd like to know what you think it lacks?

 

Regarding the demos point, arguing there. If that doesn't count for the EU, it doesn't count for the UK either. There is an ever increasing amount of people who state that they are European and several studies explore the concept of European national identity.

 

It lacks some of the key attributes of a federal government, in the form of direct elections through which the government is chosen, a significant role in major policy areas, such as health, education, welfare foreign policy and defence, major tax raising and re-distributive powers etc. Even monetary union is far from complete, and still lacks the political union to support it. We only have to look at the current election battle in the US (a real federal union), where all of the issues mentioned above are contested areas between the parties, to realise that the EU is a very long way from being a federation.

 

Regarding the identity issue, of course it is true that people have multiple identities. However, the'EU' identity remains very weak, despite the EU's attempts to foster this, through creation of a European citizenship and the use of symbols, such as the flag and anthem. Moreover, there are still no genuine Pan-European parties in the EU. Elections are fought on national issues and the main reason why MEPs join party groups in the EP is to take advantage of the incentives being offered. I would like more information about the studies you mention about the increase in European national identity. It is true that the Eurobarometer surveys show that a significant proportion of the EU population may understand that they are EU citizens, but this is not the same as saying that the strength of EU identity is increasing, certainly not enough for it to matter very much. I will believe it when we see elections for the presidency of the EU, fought by genuinely Euro-wide parties on European-wide issues.

Edited May 18, 2016 by NigelFargate

[tinfoilhat]

Good post. You nailed it about how the campaigns have been run. Both have been an insult to the intelligence of most people.

 

I've been really disappointed with the leave campaign, and the abject failure to present any detail.

 

The remain camp lost the plot as soon as Cameron resorted to nonsense about wars etc...

 

It really is all dumbed down to the most basest level and I can't see how anybody can be proud to be part of either campaign.

 

Agree - I've yet to see anyone present some facts. "Here are the regulations the EU have voted in and we don't like" or "Here's some things the EU have done and benefit the country".

 

Its just noise. I think I posted something similar in this thread or another like it a month or so back. Nothing has changed.

[max]

Agree - I've yet to see anyone present some facts. "Here are the regulations the EU have voted in and we don't like" or "Here's some things the EU have done and benefit the country".

 

Its just noise. I think I posted something similar in this thread or another like it a month or so back. Nothing has changed.

 

I listed several sites showing the benefits of membership here: Max's post on positive EU things.