sutty27 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Given a choice between pursuing the medium-term future in the EU slow lane and handing a mandate to the likes of Gove, Farage and Johnson then the former, to most of us lefties, is preferable. Its a very short sighted few, you will get the chance to kick them out of office in 2020, if the far left were in power now I would still vote out despite disagreeing with almost everything they stand for. I would vote out for the same reason as I am voting out now, because I want the UK government to be 100% accountable for everything they do, its then down to the British population if they leave them in power or kick them out of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Its a very short sighted few, you will get the chance to kick them out of office in 2020, if the far left were in power now I would still vote out despite disagreeing with almost everything they stand for. I would vote out for the same reason as I am voting out now, because I want the UK government to be 100% accountable for everything they do, its then down to the British population if they leave them in power or kick them out of power. We can never make 100% of decisions ourselves. The only countries that ever came close to that ideal were Albania and North Korea. And look at them. We can't isolate ourselves from the world and will always have to give up some control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 We can never make 100% of decisions ourselves. The only countries that ever came close to that ideal were Albania and North Korea. And look at them. We can't isolate ourselves from the world and will always have to give up some control. I have no idea how you got from our government being 100% accountable for the decisions it makes to North Korea and isolation. Some very bizarre thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyofborg Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I have no idea how you got from our government being 100% accountable for the decisions it makes to North Korea and isolation. Some very bizarre thinking. not really, it's quite correct thinking our commitments to a whole host of international treaties and compacts means there are some things which the government has to do whether or not they want too. one of the most soverign things, as a country, we can do is declare war or not more importantly not declare war but to a large extent our commitments to nato override that. the government would be no more accountable out of the eu than what it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 not really, it's quite correct thinking our commitments to a whole host of international treaties and compacts means there are some things which the government has to do whether or not they want too. one of the most soverign things, as a country, we can do is declare war or not more importantly not declare war but to a large extent our commitments to nato override that. the government would be no more accountable out of the eu than what it is now. It would be substantially more accountable than it is now and we wouldn't be isolated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 It would be substantially more accountable than it is now and we wouldn't be isolated. Its 100% accountable now, only for many things (and not just the EU) we pool our decision making with other countries. It would be impossible to make every single decision by ourselves, and also highly inefficient. But crucially in all this our government has never lost any accountability or sovereignty. Arguing that it has is one of the blatant lies from the Brexit campaigns that plays on peoples' ignorance about how international cooperation actually works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelFargate Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Its 100% accountable now, only for many things (and not just the EU) we pool our decision making with other countries. It would be impossible to make every single decision by ourselves, and also highly inefficient. But crucially in all this our government has never lost any accountability or sovereignty. Arguing that it has is one of the blatant lies from the Brexit campaigns that plays on peoples' ignorance about how international cooperation actually works. One of the problems with this debate (both on the forum and elsewhere) is that both sides are engaging in polemical hyperbole. In other words, they are overstating their cases. The post above is a good example of this. To say that the UK has not lost any sovereignty whilst in the EU is clearly false. 'Sovereignty' has two aspects, i.e. internal, meaning supreme decisionmaking and law making power within a defined territory; and external, which means equality with other sovereign states within the international system. As numerous ECJ and UK legal judgements have made clear, EU law has supremacy over UK law, whenever there is a conflict between the two. This principle is enshrined in the EU treaties and was confirmed in the famous Van Gend en Loos case many years ago. This means that neither the UK parliament nor the UK courts can overturn or ignore EU laws. This principle of paramountcy now applies for example, to trade policy, the CAP, environmental laws, some employment laws and also the laws relating to the Single European Market. So currently the UK does not have 'sovereignty' over the above specific areas of policy. However, of course sovereignty over these areas could be regained if we left the EU, so in this sense our sovereignty is being 'lent' rather than given to the EU in perpetuity. Unlike, for example, the states of the US, we are free to leave the Union (now under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty) as in fact we have always been free to leave. So currently our sovereignty is partially lent, or partially shared, but could be regained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogets Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I notice its the over 40s who want brexit. Well some of us young ones like the variety of parties that's offered if more people come into the UK, plus I like to be able to go to various countrys for my holidays so I like the concept of free movement Who wants to go back to the UK as it was back in the 1990s Farage is old Farage is inward looking What we need are young vibrant outward looking MPs who look to serve the needs of the majority, the ones who will bring house prices down and the ones who will increase the living wage to £10 an hour The time is not to pull up the drawbridge or be glaring of the white cliffs of Dover, now is the time to be welcoming everyone for a more tolerant, welcoming UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 One of the problems with this debate (both on the forum and elsewhere) is that both sides are engaging in polemical hyperbole. In other words, they are overstating their cases. The post above is a good example of this. To say that the UK has not lost any sovereignty whilst in the EU is clearly false. 'Sovereignty' has two aspects, i.e. internal, meaning supreme decisionmaking and law making power within a defined territory; and external, which means equality with other sovereign states within the international system. As numerous ECJ and UK legal judgements have made clear, EU law has supremacy over UK law, whenever there is a conflict between the two. This principle is enshrined in the EU treaties and was confirmed in the famous Van Gend en Loos case many years ago. This means that neither the UK parliament nor the UK courts can overturn or ignore EU laws. This principle of paramountcy now applies for example, to trade policy, the CAP, environmental laws, some employment laws and also the laws relating to the Single European Market. So currently the UK does not have 'sovereignty' over the above specific areas of policy. However, of course sovereignty over these areas could be regained if we left the EU, so in this sense our sovereignty is being 'lent' rather than given to the EU in perpetuity. Unlike, for example, the states of the US, we are free to leave the Union (now under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty) as in fact we have always been free to leave. So currently our sovereignty is partially lent, or partially shared, but could be regained. Absolutely we do have sovereignty. 100%. A common mistake is to think we are somehow unavoidably under the yoke of the EU and unwillingly subject to the supremacy of EU law. We are not. We have made a sovereign decision to be part of the process of common decision making in the EU and to share some common laws. We can reverse that at any time by making a sovereign decision, and this is why we are having the referendum. To decide whether to exercise our sovereignty. I understand what you are saying and you even admit what is at stake is our 'sense' of sovereignty. That is not the same as losing sovereignty. To be fair you do fully understand the distinction but you are one of very few of the foot soldiers on the Brexit side who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon1 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) Another bleeding heart liberal. So sad Could you explain what you mean dude? Because this Don't make no sense to me Are you trying to insult me? Well you've just made yourself look bad Coming across as selfish and self-obsessed Edited May 21, 2016 by Solomon1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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