EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[sutty27]

Yeah, Page Hall is full of scientists, doctors and highly skilled engineers making a vast contribution to the UK economy.

I see Cameron's made his weekly u-turn today, saying we have a veto on Turkey entering the EU, then on the Sunday Politics it showed a clip of him in 2010 making a speech in Turkey saying he wanted them in and he was the best friend they had in Europe. What a tool.

Then we had the boss of the NHS saying it would suffer if we left, why? Won't they have enough patients. David Owen swiftly debunked that by pointing out that anyone already here has an automatic right to remain. Then further saying that this is a bloke who is presiding over a three billion pound deficit in the NHS and he might be better employed sorting that out.

 

He did the usual dodge when asked about how increases in population (size caused by immigration) increased demand for NHS services.

[Tomjames]

Yeah, Page Hall is full of scientists, doctors and highly skilled engineers making a vast contribution to the UK economy.

I see Cameron's made his weekly u-turn today, saying we have a veto on Turkey entering the EU, then on the Sunday Politics it showed a clip of him in 2010 making a speech in Turkey saying he wanted them in and he was the best friend they had in Europe. What a tool.

Then we had the boss of the NHS saying it would suffer if we left, why? Won't they have enough patients. David Owen swiftly debunked that by pointing out that anyone already here has an automatic right to remain. Then further saying that this is a bloke who is presiding over a three billion pound deficit in the NHS and he might be better employed sorting that out.

 

But shouldn't we have a free for all? Open up our health service to millions more patients from economically deprived countries?

 

The NHS is healthy and over funded after all.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2016 at 14:28 ----------

 

I'm sick of hearing we should be part of cohesive Europe and be more outward looking...what does that even mean?

There's more countries in the world than the eu states, what about those? What about india, china south east Asia? The Americas? We've completely forgot how to be competitive in a global market due to a bunch of unelected beaurocrats.

 

Councils and governments dont create trade, businesses do...There was 250 businesses signed a petition recently to leave the EU...95% of the UK market is made up of these small businesses. We should listen because that is who is under threat!

 

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/250_business_leaders_back_vote_leave_as_new_poll_shows_eu_stops_entrepreneurs_creating_jobs

Edited May 22, 2016 by Tomjames
.....

[gomgeg]

But shouldn't we have a free for all? Open up our health service to millions more patients from economically deprived countries?

 

The NHS is healthy and over funded after all.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2016 at 14:28 ----------

 

I'm sick of hearing we should be part of cohesive Europe and be more outward looking...what does that even mean?

There's more countries in the world than the eu states, what about those? What about india, china south east Asia? The Americas? We've completely forgot how to be competitive in a global market due to a bunch of unelected beaurocrats.

 

Councils and governments dont create trade, businesses do...There was 250 businesses signed a petition recently to leave the EU...95% of the UK market is made up of these small businesses. We should listen because that is who is under threat!

 

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/250_business_leaders_back_vote_leave_as_new_poll_shows_eu_stops_entrepreneurs_creating_jobs

 

I can't see that cohesive Europe working, for instance at the moment Austria are having a presidential election and the polls seem to suggest that it's 50/50 whether an extreme right wing candidate will be elected, that sort of theme looks like spreading, it'll be interesting next year to see the results in the German elections.

[I1L2T3]

Indeed, immigration is for the benefit of employers, it allows them to keep wages lower than they would be without immigration and it reduces the need to spend money on training to the detriment of the indigenous population.

 

At the places I worked, but the companies did save money by not employing graduates and modern apprentices. And also saved money by using various tax efficiencies, e.g by providing lodging and offsetting it against tax, being exempt from NI for some of the employees etc...

 

This never suppressed my wages though but I am one of an older cohort of workers who have valuable skills plus the capability to work with customers which is something the Indian workers often struggle with.

 

Not the same story with the younger British youngsters, who basically stopped getting new opportunities at the companies. From about 1998-9 it was literally like a tap being turned off. In the space of 2-3 years we went from taking 200+ graduates and modern apprentices as year to taking a handful.

 

As I stated above this was nothing to do with the EU. These immigrant workers came from India primarily.

 

I've said before but your ire at immigration is probably pointed in the wrong direction. It isn't EU immigration that is tipping us over the edge, but non-EU immigration.

 

Many times Brexit campaigners have talked about reconnecting with the commonwealth. Smithy, if we turn off the flow of EU migration then where do you think the business leaders who back Brexit are going to expect their cheaper labour to come from? All the clues are there.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2016 at 15:50 ----------

 

But shouldn't we have a free for all? Open up our health service to millions more patients from economically deprived countries?

 

The NHS is healthy and over funded after all.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2016 at 14:28 ----------

 

I'm sick of hearing we should be part of cohesive Europe and be more outward looking...what does that even mean?

There's more countries in the world than the eu states, what about those? What about india, china south east Asia? The Americas? We've completely forgot how to be competitive in a global market due to a bunch of unelected beaurocrats.

 

Councils and governments dont create trade, businesses do...There was 250 businesses signed a petition recently to leave the EU...95% of the UK market is made up of these small businesses. We should listen because that is who is under threat!

 

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/250_business_leaders_back_vote_leave_as_new_poll_shows_eu_stops_entrepreneurs_creating_jobs

 

Competing with China and India means high levels of pollution, reduced workers rights, longer working hours and lower wages.

 

The EU protects you and your family and friends from this. Be thankful for that at least.

 

I'm sure you wouldn't pick that kind of lifestyle voluntarily, but make no mistake the puppet masters in the Brexit campaign are itching to pick it for you.

[altus]

Easy then. Point me to where it is well-documented and I will comment.

He doesn't want to give details because they are too easily debunked. He's just repeating Vote Leave's recent claims that five new countries could join the EU by 2020 - including Turkey. The reality is rather different: Could Turkey really join the EU by 2020?.

[sutty27]

At the places I worked, but the companies did save money by not employing graduates and modern apprentices. And also saved money by using various tax efficiencies, e.g by providing lodging and offsetting it against tax, being exempt from NI for some of the employees etc...

 

This never suppressed my wages though but I am one of an older cohort of workers who have valuable skills plus the capability to work with customers which is something the Indian workers often struggle with.

 

Not the same story with the younger British youngsters, who basically stopped getting new opportunities at the companies. From about 1998-9 it was literally like a tap being turned off. In the space of 2-3 years we went from taking 200+ graduates and modern apprentices as year to taking a handful.

 

As I stated above this was nothing to do with the EU. These immigrant workers came from India primarily.

 

I've said before but your ire at immigration is probably pointed in the wrong direction. It isn't EU immigration that is tipping us over the edge, but non-EU immigration.

 

Many times Brexit campaigners have talked about reconnecting with the commonwealth. Smithy, if we turn off the flow of EU migration then where do you think the business leaders who back Brexit are going to expect their cheaper labour to come from? All the clues are there.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2016 at 15:50 ----------

 

 

Competing with China and India means high levels of pollution, reduced workers rights, longer working hours and lower wages.

 

The EU protects you and your family and friends from this. Be thankful for that at least.

 

I'm sure you wouldn't pick that kind of lifestyle voluntarily, but make no mistake the puppet masters in the Brexit campaign are itching to pick it for you.

 

My anger is at governments over the past 2 decades for allowing it and they want to stay in the EU, whilst spiting them isn't my reason for wanting out, it's a blooming good reason to vote out.

[I1L2T3]

My anger is at governments over the past 2 decades for allowing it and they want to stay in the EU, whilst spiting them isn't my reason for wanting out, it's a blooming good reason to vote out.

 

Wouldn't it be more sensible to fix the issues with non-EU immigration?

 

The risk is that immigration will not fall post-Brexit, and that the primary source many switch to be non-EU.

 

Whatever you say now, or want, the brutal truth is that when business wants its workers what you think won't matter.

[sutty27]

Wouldn't it be more sensible to fix the issues with non-EU immigration?

 

The risk is that immigration will not fall post-Brexit, and that the primary source many switch to be non-EU.

 

Whatever you say now, or want, the brutal truth is that when business wants its workers what you think won't matter.

 

It can't be fixed, if immigration continues at the very high levels we see now after brexit the Labour party and Conservatives will see their share of the vote slowly fall and be replaced with anti immigration parties.

[tzijlstra]

I bet it's under 60%. You have to be registered to vote. Many miss the cut off.

 

Most people are registered anyway. Young people will vote, unlike the general impression of apathetic mobile device slaves they are very vocal, focussed and engaged, which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for a lot of people older than me at 37.

 

They also get their news in very different modes, I chuckled out loud seeing some of the horrendous Daily Mail headlines yesterday, they are pretty much on par with many of your comments. Bleeding heart liberals, undemocratic nansies, never signed off their accounts and countless other debate-stoppers came across.

 

Fortunately the young of today have sense and go beyond traditional news sources like that, instead relying on each other revealing appropriate sources and arguing amongst themselves about what to trust and not to trust.

[NigelFargate]

A good predictor, in my view, of the likely outcome of the referendum is the 'status quo' syndrome. In other words, in most referendums on European issues, people have rejected the change being offered, mainly because of the risks and uncertainty inherent in this option (as of course the Scots also did in the referendum on independence).

 

Since the signing of the Maastricht treaty, I calculate that there have been thirteen referendums held by member states on various European issues. Of these, only four resulted in favourable votes for the change option (i.e. for the Maastricht treaty by Ireland and France and then for the Constitutional Treaty by Luxembourg and Spain - even though France and the Netherlands voted against this treaty, as the the UK would also have done had it not been already scuppered). The recent Dutch rejection of the draft treaty with Ukraine is another example of this syndrome.

 

So my prediction is that the 'remain' side will win (probably by a comfortable margin) regardless of the cogency of the arguments on either side.

 

---------- Post added 22-05-2016 at 18:28 ----------

 

Absolutely we do have sovereignty. 100%.

 

A common mistake is to think we are somehow unavoidably under the yoke of the EU and unwillingly subject to the supremacy of EU law. We are not.

 

We have made a sovereign decision to be part of the process of common decision making in the EU and to share some common laws. We can reverse that at any time by making a sovereign decision, and this is why we are having the referendum. To decide whether to exercise our sovereignty.

 

I understand what you are saying and you even admit what is at stake is our 'sense' of sovereignty. That is not the same as losing sovereignty. To be fair you do fully understand the distinction but you are one of very few of the foot soldiers on the Brexit side who do.

 

I thought my post (repeated below) made clear that sovereignty can be regained. However, in my view it is difficult to argue that currently the UK parliament has supreme decision making or law-making power over the areas of policy I mention. The UK government made the mistake way back in 1972 of misleading the British public into thinking that entry into the E.E.C. as it then was would have no implications for sovereignty, when clearly it did. As I said before:

 

One of the problems with this debate (both on the forum and elsewhere) is that both sides are engaging in polemical hyperbole. In other words, they are overstating their cases. To say that the UK has not lost any sovereignty whilst in the EU is clearly false. 'Sovereignty' has two aspects, i.e. internal, meaning supreme decisionmaking and law making power within a defined territory; and external, which means equality with other sovereign states within the international system.

 

As numerous ECJ and UK legal judgements have made clear, EU law has supremacy over UK law, whenever there is a conflict between the two. This principle is enshrined in the EU treaties and was confirmed in the famous Van Gend en Loos case many years ago. This means that neither the UK parliament nor the UK courts can overturn or ignore EU laws. This principle of paramountcy now applies for example, to trade policy, the CAP, environmental laws, some employment laws and also the laws relating to the Single European Market.

 

So currently the UK does not have 'sovereignty' over the above specific areas of policy. However, of course sovereignty over these areas could be regained if we left the EU, so in this sense our sovereignty is being 'lent' rather than given to the EU in perpetuity. Unlike, for example, the states of the US, we are free to leave the Union (now under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty) as in fact we have always been free to leave. So currently our sovereignty is partially lent, or partially shared, but could be regained.

 

Incidentally, what makes you think that I am a 'Brexit foot soldier'?

Edited May 22, 2016 by NigelFargate