unbeliever Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 The fact remains that Brexit is based on conjecture and what ifs. Nobody from the Brexit camp can say with any conviction what will happen should they succeed. While the Remain camp can simply ask what's wrong now and how will it improve, without conjecture and what if, after Brexit? Couldn't disagree more. The EU is headed toward further integration as it always had been. Staying in is a wild ride to political union, not the status quo. Will be be excluded from some if it, temporarily probably yes; permanently, not a chance in hell. There is no safe option where we know what our relationship with the EU will be like in 10 or 20 years' time. Vote out, vote in, the future's unknown either way, Unless of course you believe wholeheartedly in the honesty and integrity of the current PM and the European leaders with whom he has been negotiating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) Couldn't disagree more. The EU is headed toward further integration as it always had been. Staying in is a wild ride to political union, not the status quo. Will be be excluded from some if it, temporarily probably yes; permanently, not a chance in hell. There is no safe option where we know what our relationship with the EU will be like in 10 or 20 years' time. Vote out, vote in, the future's unknown either way, Or you could, you know, look at the "almost-ins" of relevance (in socio-economic terms, relative to the UK) that are Norway and Switzerland, under the EFTA (56 years old!) and the EEA (22 years old) How further integrated are these politically (I mean that in fundamental fields of sovereignty, such as finance, taxation, defence <etc.>) relative to all those years ago? Me, I think there's definitely room for an 'EU-lite' subset within the EU, which the EFTA/EEA lot currently looking to get 'properly' into the EU (Iceland, Norway) would definitely join, rather the 'EU-full-fat' based on the €. Can the UK trailblaze and head that 'lite' subset within the EU? I think it most definitely can. Outers don't Edited May 25, 2016 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) Turnout for the German federal election, November 1932 was 80.6%. Really, was it that high? You are correct in assuming which election I was referring to. I was under the impression it was lower (or low!) but I didn't bother to look it up first. But as I said, I didn't express it to be taken as gospel! It's completely unrelated but UKIP won the 2014 European elections with a turnout of 35.6%....... ---------- Post added 25-05-2016 at 15:15 ---------- Unless of course you believe wholeheartedly in the honesty and integrity of the current PM and the European leaders with whom he has been negotiating. I certainly don't. Nor do I believe in the honesty and integrity of Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage etc etc. Edited May 25, 2016 by Shef1985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I certainly don't. Nor do I believe in the honesty and integrity of Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage etc etc. Then we're in the same boat, which is we have no idea what the future holds either way. So the question for me is where should the power lie: With the EU government or the UK government. I say the UK government. ---------- Post added 25-05-2016 at 15:22 ---------- Me, I think there's definitely room for an 'EU-lite' subset within the EU, which the EFTA/EEA lot currently looking to get 'properly' into the EU (Iceland, Norway) would definitely join, rather the 'EU-full-fat' based on the €. Can the UK trailblaze and head that 'lite' subset within the EU? I think it most definitely can. Outers don't That's a fair summary of a lot of us. Certainly you and me. I think we're being shouted down in this referendum campaign by a lot of rather deceitful nonsense from both sides and that's a tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) My perception is different, Outers are open to discussion whilst Ins resort to scaremongering, claims that are demonstrably full of untruths and the occasional bit of name calling thrown in for good luck. The tide is shifting to immigration now in the Out campaign. We will see them do the scaremongering now I think. What can't you admit Out has no actual concrete plan for a post Brexit Britain? Forget absolutely everything Remain is going on about, pretend they aren't even there, listen to what Out tells you about the future. It won't take long. Edited May 25, 2016 by Shef1985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I don't dent that. Do you deny that I don't deny that??? The tide is shifting to immigration now in the Out campaign. We will see them do the scaremongering now I think. What can't you admit Out has no actual concrete plan for a post Brexit Britain? Forget absolutely everything Remain is going on about, pretend they aren't even there, listen to what Out tells you about the future. It won't take long. It's undecided. It will depend on the votes of the UK people post-Brexit. That's kind of how democracy is supposed to be. Do you really want to sacrifice democracy for certainty. If on the other hand you think the EU is democratic, then surely the same uncertainty exists there as well. If you're looking for certainty, I think you're in the wrong universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeMaquis Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 What can't you admit Out has no actual concrete plan for a post Brexit Britain? Have you not heard of Michael Gove's plan for us to be more like the economic powerhouse that is Albania? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3555770/Dear-Mr-Gove-want-like-Albania-ASS-deciding-Brexit-Two-brilliant-voices-Ins-Outs.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 That's an opinion which you're entitled to, but which I disagree with. ---------- Post added 25-05-2016 at 14:55 ---------- On this we generally agree, but our side, the Brexiters are too often full of bovine excrement themselves. For a start going around saying that we're paying £360 million per week, which is very nearly a complete lie as it ignores the rebate. It would be legitimate not to deduct EU directed spending in the UK as our parliament doesn't control it, but you surely have to deduct the rebate! I agree, and think they only use the full figure because the rebate isn't set and stone so can be revoked I think, doesn't matter to me because it's not about the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 It's undecided. It will depend on the votes of the UK people post-Brexit. That's kind of how democracy is supposed to be. Do you really want to sacrifice democracy for certainty. If on the other hand you think the EU is democratic, then surely the same uncertainty exists there as well. If you're looking for certainty, I think you're in the wrong universe. There is a degree of natural uncertainty and then there is creating uncertainty. There is a significant difference and it is a key factor for many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Then we're in the same boat, which is we have no idea what the future holds either way. So the question for me is where should the power lie: With the EU government or the UK government. I say the UK government. A UK government who's absolute number one priority will be to negotiate us back somehow into something we have just stuck two fingers up at and no plan whatsoever how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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