EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[tzijlstra]

I have to admit that I've no idea how I'll vote, what I will say is that the ones who want us to stay have said nothing positive about staying, but have said plenty of negatives if we leave. Meanwhile the leavers have not really said anything to grab my attention.

 

Let me give it a shot Pete, what is not said in the debate is what the EU has already done for the UK, it stabilised political relations between nations that had traditionally fought each other on everything, it has provided the single largest,arket in the world, benefitting UK businesses and seeing huge, unparalleled inward investment into the country.

 

It has protected workers rights, in particular forcing the government to accelerate regulation on rights of women. It has provided funding for excellent research projects, leading to the discovery of Higgs Boson particles, black holes and so on.

 

It has protected EU based businesses from harmful influences, for example Chinese steel, unfortunately delayed by the UK government, it has encouraged investment in geographical areas that national governments did not find important for countless reasons, usually economic, it has harnessed, funded and protected the minorities, like the Gaelic population here in the Hebrides.

 

It has forced governments to take the environment serious, agreeing a framework to invest in renewables, rapidly accelerating their development and lowering the cost of things like solar panels and wind turbines, but also by setting emission standards for cars and other vehicles and ensuring industry now has a duty to clean up its own mess.

 

I can go on for days, but the brief summary is - the EU has done loads of good for people in the UK, in particular in areas that are bigger than a national government's scope.

[woahthere]

Now this is purely my own view. I am a brexiter and I have listened to the remains side how something may/could/might/possibly happen. All of the arguments are basically fiscal. Well the reason I am voting out is worth more to me than money, it is so precious to me that I am willing to take any or all of the fiscal matters that may/might/could/possibly happen.

 

Cool, will you take any or all of the negative fiscal matters that may/might/could/possibly affect me as well please? Cheers.

[ommando]

You have a vote same as me, use it. If I win then you get whatever doomsday scenario comes in ( if any ). If you win I get ruled by unelected ( by me ) eurocrats until the EU implodes.

 

tzi can I have a counter shot.

 

Relations would have been stabilized due to interaction anyway. In WW2 the Japanese were portrayed as buck toothed and short sighted because the general public had never met one. As interaction took place peoples perceptions changed, even the commies now do not look so bad. This was through countries opening up to each other as travel and technology such as tv became more widespread and a lot of these countries were not in the EU so don,t think they can take the credit for all of it.

 

Workers rights, we had plenty of them prior to joining the EU so don,t think they can take all the credit. The Higgs Boson particle helps me how?, it was there before its existence was proved,. It did not help me then and does not help me now.

Black holes again help me how?, where is the nearest one, can I go visit.

It has restricted the UK govt from helping our own industries because we play by the rules unlike the rest of the EU who ignore the rules as and when they see fit, eg France refusing to take British beef after the BSE crisis, they just ignored EU ruling.

was,nt aware the Gaelic population was under threat of genocide from the rest of the UK. Thought they moved for better jobs etc and so changed the lifestyle of the islands voluntarily, at least thats what my Scottish grandmother used to say. My Irish grandmother basically said the same about Ireland, thats why both families were in England and produced my parents between them.

Yes set emission standards, the Germans just ignore them anyway and fix their cars to show duff data. Without subsidies the solar panels are too expensive, my friends son has just been made redundant from fitting them.

 

The things that the EU have done may be good and have a bearing on me but they are not tangible as far as I am concerned and I am not convinced we would not have got there without the EU. After all we had Labour govts in power for many years and these were supposedly the champions of the working class although I think Blair is more tory than the tories.

 

Please do not ask me for web sites, links etc because I am crap with computers and being able to write on this thread is about my limit.

 

---------- Post added 25-05-2016 at 20:32 ----------

 

Just as an aside how much did the hadron collider which discovered higgs bosun cost and how much did the EU stump up. I admit it is probably very exciting for physicists and such like but for the man in the street there will be very little impact on his life so I question why the EU should spend such money. It is just another example of how the EU is morphing beyond all recognition.

[tzijlstra]

You have a vote same as me, use it. If I win then you get whatever doomsday scenario comes in ( if any ). If you win I get ruled by unelected ( by me ) eurocrats until the EU implodes.

 

tzi can I have a counter shot.

 

Relations would have been stabilized due to interaction anyway. In WW2 the Japanese were portrayed as buck toothed and short sighted because the general public had never met one. As interaction took place peoples perceptions changed, even the commies now do not look so bad. This was through countries opening up to each other as travel and technology such as tv became more widespread and a lot of these countries were not in the EU so don,t think they can take the credit for all of it.

 

Workers rights, we had plenty of them prior to joining the EU so don,t think they can take all the credit. The Higgs Boson particle helps me how?, it was there before its existence was proved,. It did not help me then and does not help me now.

Black holes again help me how?, where is the nearest one, can I go visit.

It has restricted the UK govt from helping our own industries because we play by the rules unlike the rest of the EU who ignore the rules as and when they see fit, eg France refusing to take British beef after the BSE crisis, they just ignored EU ruling.

was,nt aware the Gaelic population was under threat of genocide from the rest of the UK. Thought they moved for better jobs etc and so changed the lifestyle of the islands voluntarily, at least thats what my Scottish grandmother used to say. My Irish grandmother basically said the same about Ireland, thats why both families were in England and produced my parents between them.

Yes set emission standards, the Germans just ignore them anyway and fix their cars to show duff data. Without subsidies the solar panels are too expensive, my friends son has just been made redundant from fitting them.

 

The things that the EU have done may be good and have a bearing on me but they are not tangible as far as I am concerned and I am not convinced we would not have got there without the EU. After all we had Labour govts in power for many years and these were supposedly the champions of the working class although I think Blair is more tory than the tories.

 

Please do not ask me for web sites, links etc because I am crap with computers and being able to write on this thread is about my limit.

 

Of course you can have a counter, that is what a forum is for. I have to say though, based on your reply, you are repeating the sentiment that you were taught by your own government, rather than bursting the balloon of propaganda, which unfortunately is central to the debate as is. That sentiment being that the UK government has traditionally blamed the EU for unpopular interventions, where often it is the interpretation of the government that created the unpopular edge.

 

I do not know your age, but your arguments come across as the arguments I hear from many British over 50s, vague and seated in a natural distrust of the EU after years of lies from UK governments. As I know Pete is a grandfather I would like to ask him, and perhaps you although that is presumptuous of me, to vote for a future that appeals to the young, those wanting their own grand children in the future. They are overwhelmingly pro EU, youmight not want to use your mobile whilst training around Europe with friends, but they do. You might not have had the chance to study in any EU country or to get a job in any EU city, but they have.

[unbeliever]

Just as an aside how much did the hadron collider which discovered higgs bosun cost and how much did the EU stump up. I admit it is probably very exciting for physicists and such like but for the man in the street there will be very little impact on his life so I question why the EU should spend such money. It is just another example of how the EU is morphing beyond all recognition.

 

The LHC cost about £10 billion so far. Depends on how you count it.

I worked on it myself a little although I'm not part of any of the experiment collaborations.

CERN and its accelerator projects have always been internationally funded since the early '50s. It all started long before the EU. About 1.6% of CERN's funding comes through the EU source.

 

As somebody actually involved in CERN and the LHC, I cannot put strongly enough the fact that the LHC has absolutely naff all to do with the EU. CERN as I say predated the EU by decades, is funded from all over the world, the majority of funding nations not being in the EU and is actually based in Switzerland, outside the EU.

 

CERN and the LHC are absolutely splendid examples of how well international cooperation on matters of mutual interest works absolutely fine without trying to assemble a continental federal government whilst pretending that's not what you're doing.

[ommando]

apparently Hadron collider paid for by members of CERN which appear to all be EU members.According to Forbes cost of discovering Higgs Bosun particle $13.25 billion, what a ridiculous amount of money to discover a particle that is of what use to mankind?.

 

---------- Post added 25-05-2016 at 20:46 ----------

 

M, I may just be thick or you sound smarter than me but what is this Higgs Bosun going to do for mankind. Will it help with space travel, just curious as to what good it is, And thanks for clearing up that CERN existed prior to the EU and not because of the EU.

[woahthere]

You have a vote same as me, use it. If I win then you get whatever doomsday scenario comes in ( if any ). If you win I get ruled by unelected ( by me ) eurocrats until the EU implodes.

 

Ok, thanks for the tip, I'll use it to vote in.

 

Quick question though. If you're not bothered about the fiscal issues and are willing to take any hit to your wallet that exiting might bring, what is the reason that's so precious to you that you want to leave? You never know, it might make me change my mind.

[unbeliever]

M, I may just be thick or you sound smarter than me but what is this Higgs Bosun going to do for mankind. Will it help with space travel, just curious as to what good it is, And thanks for clearing up that CERN existed prior to the EU and not because of the EU.

 

I don't know. We're in the realm of discovery here so we never know what we're getting until we actually get it.

We hope it will, by improving our understanding of how the universe works, give us ideas and techniques for technological advancement.

It's also quite possible that it won't. It's a gamble.

Still previously when similar gambles have paid off historically, they've paid off quite astoundingly well. The most obvious example being the electronics revolution.

[ommando]

TZI, Thank you for your grown up reply. Having read this thread I was dubious as to getting involved because of the often quite nasty rebuttals,

I can remember such as the BSE thing a french minister on the news stating categorically that they would ignore the EU ruling as they deemed British beef dangerous.

You see we differ in that I believe the fact I am voting out will be to the benefit of any grandchildren that I may have in the future and not to their detriment. We all have beliefs, hopes, morals that may be in conflict with anothers but we have to live by them. I am living by mine and voting out.

 

---------- Post added 25-05-2016 at 21:01 ----------

 

Woahthere, doubt it will change your mind. Its democracy. The fact that I cannot vote out the eurocrats, who are appointed and not elected. The fact that within the EU there are too many groups that vote en mass such as the eastern states for their own vested interests as we have just seen in the glorious renegotiation.

You will argue as have many on this thread that the EU is democratic, my personal opinion is that it is not. I may be wrong but that is how I see it and I am sorry if you disagree but I will not try to change your view as you have your opinion and I have mine

[tzijlstra]

The LHC cost about £10 billion so far. Depends on how you count it.

I worked on it myself a little although I'm not part of any of the experiment collaborations.

CERN and its accelerator projects have always been internationally funded since the early '50s. It all started long before the EU. About 1.6% of CERN's funding comes through the EU source.

 

As somebody actually involved in CERN and the LHC, I cannot put strongly enough the fact that the LHC has absolutely naff all to do with the EU. CERN as I say predated the EU by decades, is funded from all over the world, the majority of funding nations not being in the EU and is actually based in Switzerland, outside the EU.

 

CERN and the LHC are absolutely splendid examples of how well international cooperation on matters of mutual interest works absolutely fine without trying to assemble a continental federal government whilst pretending that's not what you're doing.

 

I used Cern because it is something people recognise, but you are right. The issue is that when I refer to FP7 projects most people glaze over and stare in the wilderness, you are aware of it though and you know it is a very significant fund for large scale research, I can mention all sorts of projects that won't mean a lot to folks but have real life practical impact.