unbeliever Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 So you are supporting non-EU immigration while trying to stop EU immigration? I guess that is what many Tories seem to have on their agenda so I guess that fits. As for the mass migration/economic crash scenario its quite possible that a Brexit vote will tip the EU into crisis. We might be the best option in that case and as the process will take years to complete we would still have free movement for a long time. You seem to be making the mistake of assuming that everything will be neat and predictable, that Brexit = reduced migration. If the dreams of Brexiters come to fruition we will have a more healthy economy looking outwards to the rest of the world. That could quite possibly make the immigration issues even more acute, especially if coupled with Schengen membership as part of the EEA. I don't think Brexiters on the ground have thought this through at all, not like the Brexit leaders. What is wrong with wanting to apply the same immigration rules to Europeans as we do to those from elsewhere. What is it that is righteous about doing otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 What is wrong with wanting to apply the same immigration rules to Europeans as we do to those from elsewhere. What is it that is righteous about doing otherwise? Because then the Europeans will do the same back to us, and that is going to hack an awful lot of people off. I can't believe its truly what we want to do. As well às our older citizens we have large numbers of younger people taking advantage of free movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Because then the Europeans will do the same back to us, and that is going to hack an awful lot of people off. I can't believe its truly what we want to do. As well às our older citizens we have large numbers of younger people taking advantage of free movement. Doesn't bother me. And I'm the sort of person who has previously had and is likely to receive again, job offers from Europe and the wider world. Most places have perfectly reasonable visa systems in place for those who would like to work in their countries and I don't think that a bit of paperwork is a serious deterrent. I've looked at Canada and the USA as well as Europe and the paperwork didn't factor into my thinking in the slightest. You haven't answered my point about the immigration costs to the state being quoted by the remain side in a dishonest fashion as they count benefits but not the cost of public services. Here's another one: Is it really honest to suggest that UK citizens will have any trouble holidaying or making short business visits to Europe post-Brexit when we were free to do so before 1972 and we have no serious difficulty visiting Australia, Canada, the USA or various other places where we have good relations with the governments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 (edited) So you are supporting non-EU immigration while trying to stop EU immigration? I guess that is what many Tories seem to have on their agenda so I guess that fits. No, I am supporting the right of our elected government to have an immigration policy that is supported by our population. As for the mass migration/economic crash scenario its quite possible that a Brexit vote will tip the EU into crisis. We might be the best option in that case and as the process will take years to complete we would still have free movement for a long time.Then it will be in both our interests to keep trading as we do now, if the EU is likely to crash after Brexit the way to avoid it is for the UK to stay in the single market, the EU will have to decide whether they allow us in on our terms to avoid a crash or don't let us in on our terms and allow the crash to happen. You seem to be making the mistake of assuming that everything will be neat and predictable, that Brexit = reduced migration. If the dreams of Brexiters come to fruition we will have a more healthy economy looking outwards to the rest of the world. That could quite possibly make the immigration issues even more acute, especially if coupled with Schengen membership as part of the EEA. I'm not assuming anything, you are doing all the assuming. I don't think Brexiters on the ground have thought this through at all, not like the Brexit leaders. I have told you many many time what will happen after Brexit, but I will try again. After we leave the EU our elected government will make policies that best suit our interests, they will enter into trade negotiations with whom ever wants to to trade with us, and in just under four years we will get the choice to keep the government we have now or elect a different one. ---------- Post added 30-05-2016 at 12:27 ---------- Because then the Europeans will do the same back to us, and that is going to hack an awful lot of people off. I can't believe its truly what we want to do. As well às our older citizens we have large numbers of younger people taking advantage of free movement. Thats not an issue, if you want to go and live and work in Germany after we leave the EU, they will treat you the same as they treat an American or Mexican, or an Indian. If they want you they will allow in to live and work, if they don't want you they will won't let you in. Edited May 30, 2016 by sutty27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodnreeluk Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 As for the mass migration/economic crash scenario its quite possible that a Brexit vote will tip the EU into crisis.Could be just what the EU needs to make it sort itself out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzer1 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Think more than ten per cent voted for the far right candidate in Austria, believe it was about fifty per cent. Political voting can change over night depending on circumstances in the run up to and during the election. The far right candidate went from being an outsider to nearly winning all because of migration, if there had been an atrocity there such as in France then I think he would have won by a huge margin. Voters are fickle and can change allegiance overnight. So a far right govt, or even more than one, in the next couple of years is not out of the question, then the eu will be in a pickle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 This forum is representative of old people. 70% voted out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 (edited) Think more than ten per cent voted for the far right candidate in Austria, believe it was about fifty per cent. Political voting can change over night depending on circumstances in the run up to and during the election. The far right candidate went from being an outsider to nearly winning all because of migration, if there had been an atrocity there such as in France then I think he would have won by a huge margin. Voters are fickle and can change allegiance overnight. So a far right govt, or even more than one, in the next couple of years is not out of the question, then the eu will be in a pickle 35,1 % (of the total voters that turned up, which was 68,5% meaning that roughly 1 in 5 Austrians voted for him in the first round) voted for the far right candidate, in the second round (out of two candidates) it was just under 50%. Austria has long had a far right element in its politics, it is not representative of the rest of Europe though. But that is not what Juncker was on about, which is the bit you don't get. He wouldn't have minded this man coming in, he would have minded this man then going about and changing rights that are guaranteed by the EU. For example deporting people of a different nationality (any different nationality) despite them having legal rights to stay and live in Austria. If we got a lunatic BNP candidate here who stated unequivocally to throw anybody not white-British off these islands, would you be happy? Edited May 30, 2016 by tzijlstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Doesn't bother me. And I'm the sort of person who has previously had and is likely to receive again, job offers from Europe and the wider world. Most places have perfectly reasonable visa systems in place for those who would like to work in their countries and I don't think that a bit of paperwork is a serious deterrent. I've looked at Canada and the USA as well as Europe and the paperwork didn't factor into my thinking in the slightest. You haven't answered my point about the immigration costs to the state being quoted by the remain side in a dishonest fashion as they count benefits but not the cost of public services. Here's another one: Is it really honest to suggest that UK citizens will have any trouble holidaying or making short business visits to Europe post-Brexit when we were free to do so before 1972 and we have no serious difficulty visiting Australia, Canada, the USA or various other places where we have good relations with the governments? Maybe there's a lot of us who like the freedom of movement we have now. Ever thought of that? I'm not defending the remain campaign arguments which have been just as half-baked as the Brexit ones. Personally it boils down to one thing and that is whether our current crop of politicians have the capability to take us through a Brexit. IMO they don't so it is not right to consider leaving right now. We need to have stronger domestic politics to deal with the consequences. ---------- Post added 30-05-2016 at 14:42 ---------- No, I am supporting the right of our elected government to have an immigration policy that is supported by our population. Then it will be in both our interests to keep trading as we do now, if the EU is likely to crash after Brexit the way to avoid it is for the UK to stay in the single market, the EU will have to decide whether they allow us in on our terms to avoid a crash or don't let us in on our terms and allow the crash to happen. I'm not assuming anything, you are doing all the assuming. I have told you many many time what will happen after Brexit, but I will try again. After we leave the EU our elected government will make policies that best suit our interests, they will enter into trade negotiations with whom ever wants to to trade with us, and in just under four years we will get the choice to keep the government we have now or elect a different one. ---------- Post added 30-05-2016 at 12:27 ---------- Thats not an issue, if you want to go and live and work in Germany after we leave the EU, they will treat you the same as they treat an American or Mexican, or an Indian. If they want you they will allow in to live and work, if they don't want you they will won't let you in. I don't want to be treated like a Mexican or an Indian. I want to be treated like a European. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Maybe there's a lot of us who like the freedom of movement we have now. Ever thought of that? I'm not defending the remain campaign arguments which have been just as half-baked as the Brexit ones. Personally it boils down to one thing and that is whether our current crop of politicians have the capability to take us through a Brexit. IMO they don't so it is not right to consider leaving right now. We need to have stronger domestic politics to deal with the consequences. When in the last 44 years have you had sufficiently high estimation of our politicians that you would have trusted them with this job? These are the people we voted for to govern us. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that it's okay to hobble them because we don't like the choice the people have made. This feels rather like reaching for an excuse to vote in. Convince me I've misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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