EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[sutty27]

Yes, because there are many coal-mines left in Britain.

 

If you genuinely believe that a market a sixth the size of the single EU market is going to create two new customers for every lost EU customer for British firms than you are a fool.

 

Every British company at the moment can supply goods to everyone in the EU but at the same time they have to compete with all the other businesses across the EU. Remove the EU customers and you remove the EU competition, therefore they end up with less competition in the UK market. If I can't buy French cheese I will buy British cheese, if I can't by German drills I will buy British drills. If I can't buy Polish steel I will buy British steel. The reality though is that very little will change, the EU will want access to the British market because if they don't do a deal they will lose out.

 

 

What is best as a business owner?

 

10 companies that do the same as you with a market of 500 million people.

 

Or no other companies that do what you do and a market of 50 million people.

 

You appear to believe that we won't be able to sell into the EU but we will still be able to buy from the EU.

Edited June 1, 2016 by sutty27

[Car Boot]

We will find after the referendum results have been analysed that the wealthiest in society mostly voted for Remain. While the poorest will mostly vote for Leave.

 

Smash the rich! Leave the EU.

 

---------- Post added 01-06-2016 at 08:41 ----------

 

The poorest in society are suffering because of the European Union. The higher up the wealth table one climbs, the greater the benefit from EU membership one experiences.

 

The European Union is a capitalist club created to benefit the rich, at the expense of the poor. Smash the rich! Leave the EU!

[L00b]

nice to see wetherspoons getting in on the act https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/dot-commons-diary/75585/boozers-brexit-%E2%80%93-wetherspoons-gets I wonder if anyone can answer the questions on their beermats

The Financial Times did yesterday, in a rather fun and good way.

 

Until the beermats, I had a bit of time for Tim Martin, he'd made some good points and arguments earlier on, and was light on rethoric.

 

But these are taking the proverbial, so Martin can now join Johnson and Farage on my list of populist berks.

Every British company at the moment can supply goods to everyone in the EU but at the same time they have to compete with all the other businesses across the EU. Remove the EU customers and you remove the EU competition, therefore they end up with less competition in the UK market. If I can't buy French cheese I will buy British cheese, if I can't by German drills I will buy British drills. If I can't buy Polish steel I will buy British steel.

Full-on autarcy? You seem to have the economics knowledge/understanding of a 5 year old.

The reality though is that very little will change, the EU will want access to the British market because if they don't do a deal they will lose out.

The EU is 44% of the UK's total export market, about 13 % of UK GDP.

 

The UK is a hair under 16% of the EU's total export market, about 3% of EU GDP.

 

No doubt you can work out who needs the other the most from these figures

Edited June 1, 2016 by L00b
found and added link

[unbeliever]

You keep failing to understand this point, and I admit I might not have made it clear enough, so I will try again.

I understand perfectly.

It isn't just trade-regulations, it is access to a single market - ie. a market that accepts the same standards throughout with free movement of goods and people. You take the 'free' away and it hinders movement of goods and people (services). So Brian the mining-engineer suddenly needs to do a job in Poland now, he hops on a plane (after having his passport checked) to Krakow, gets in a taxi, talks to his clients, done. He tells them they need 15 pneumatic drills produced by Drill Ltd. in Chesterfield, whilst he is there he rings Drill Ltd. to confirm the order, they stick them on the back of a lorry, the lorry sets off and a day or two later arrives at Krakow with the drills. Done.

The term market "access" is highly misleading. Yes, there is a little more paperwork to do when you need to trade with the USA or Switzerland compared to France and Germany. It's not really a problem. The difference is not a matter of days.

Now though, we take that free movement away. He has to get a visa (assuming the UK does away with free movement of people), delaying his ability to get to Krakow in a hurry. He gets it in a few days, because the EU is jovial about Brits getting a visa, he gets to Krakow and puts in the order for the drills, but now the drills all of a sudden are subject to a range of checks, do they comply with EU standards? Do they actually measure 1,25 mtr in length like the paperwork says? Are the VAT documents in order?

No he doesn't. He's free to come here. Just needs to get a work permit if he wants to make a job here.

It takes the border-control longer to process it, it costs Drill Ltd. a lot of unnecessary overhead whilst checking all the paperwork is in order and so on. All of a sudden the drills take 4 days instead of 2 to get there.

The Poles can't wait for a whole week so decide that instead of Brian the Brit, Ignazio the Italian can come over, he has similar expertise and connections, but now with Drillia SrlA. but without all the hassle involved that Brian has to go through he becomes a far more interesting option for them.

The paperwork is not that complicated. It doesn't take an extra 2 days. I have no idea where you get that idea.

 

That sort of paperwork will still be involved for Andy the Aussie coming to do trade in the UK by the way. He has to get a visa, he has to check his merchandise measures up to the UK standards etc.

 

It isn't as simple as you make it out to be Unbeliever.

 

Andy does not need a visa to come to the UK. He just doesn't. Nor would Hans from Germany or Eddie from Poland. They would just need to apply for a work permit in order to take up a job here.

I'm going to sat that one more time.

If you're from a country we have good relations with, you only need a permit if you want to WORK here.

[L00b]

Andy does not need a visa to come to the UK. He just doesn't. Nor would Hans from Germany or Eddie from Poland. They would just need to apply for a work permit in order to take up a job here.

I'm going to sat that one more time.

If you're from a country we have good relations with, you only need a permit if you want to WORK here.

The UK's immigration service (and the UK's PBS within that) and accessorily my American brother in law (whom I helped negotiate the highly tortuous UK PBS system for close to 2 years until he finally got in on the 3rd try), not to mention my wife who is a qualified SIA vettor and regularly checks the residency right and working status of security workers/applicants (many of whom non-EU) with the HO/Immigration Service/Embassies, all suggest that you're wrong: any non-EU immigrant after employment in the UK needs a "work visa" (and logically this will be the case for any EU immigrant after a Brexit, unless the current system is changed with a relevant Act or SI).

 

The work permit is just to allow the person to work in the UK, but it is the visa which is the instrument that authorises residency in the UK during the period of work. A visa holder may indeed not have a work permit, i.e. a (time limited) right to reside in the UK but no right to work.

 

These are all distinct (and precursors) to a visa granting indefinite leave to remain (becoming available years down the line), which is effectively what EU workers get from the get-go currently.

The paperwork is not that complicated. It doesn't take an extra 2 days. I have no idea where you get that idea.

Going back 20 years, I had a lot of formal training (HND equivalent) in the 'practicals' of international trade, including such niceties as regulatory and custom rules compliance, negotiating incoterms, filling and checking bills of loading and insurance forms, declarations routing, contractual exchanges and more. 'Days' is perfectly realistic, if formal (third party, i.e. customs) administrative checks and stamping are required before the stuff can move an inch, whether in the UK or at the (example-) Polish border.

 

The issue is not the complexity of the paperwork. It's the inertia inherent to the number of parties involved (seller, buyer, any formal admin, fret provider, insurer, clearing bank, etc.) and the chain of required/statutory exchanges between them, before stuff can move and as stuff moves, which is.

 

WTO rules have helped reduce that a lot since that time, and EU rules have just about done away with it. But make no mistake, doing away with the simplification achieved by EU trading harmonization would revert us back to (at best, because subject to new trade deals) processing and shipping orders as we currently do with e.g. the US, China, etc. and that is significantly longer and more complicated than sending a pallet or 10 anywhere in the EU currently.

Edited June 1, 2016 by L00b

[samssong]

Wetherspoons pubs are going to supply beer mats with the message, lets get out of this corrupt union before its to late.

If we don't do it this time we never will

OUT, OUT, OUT.

[thegreenjudy]

Was unable to read the whole thread and I wouldn't be allowed to vote anyway even if I wanted to.

 

I have been living and working in the UK for the last 9 years (I am not taking anybody's job - I am using my language skills which are generally quite poor among British population - 3 people applied for my job and none of them were British). We have many hard working Europeans working at my workplace and they are all pretty worried - so far there are absolutely no plans to address the issue of "What happens to existing immigrants" other than vague statements. So many other issues are not being addressed either - So basically (as it usually is the case) things happen but nobody really has a plan as to what happens afterwards. I mean, who in his right mind would vote for that??

 

I am married to a Brit and I am happy here. Yes, there are many immigrants who don't work - mainly because they are not allowed to or their language skills are very poor. Which I feel has more to do with the way the government handles things. One of my friends moved to Denmark not too long ago and was forced to sit language exams to stay in the country long term. My husband on the other hand who worked for Sheffield College tells me that every year the same people enrol for ESOL because the course gets paid for by the jobcenter and they still don't speak English after years. I don't think leaving the EU will change much in the way the British government handles these and other problems.

 

I feel that many problems in the UK are entirely home-made and have nothing to do with the EU. I see so many white British people on drugs and benefits roaming the streets or living on council estates and they are no longer even able to work and I am not sure if they ever wanted to and they are breeding whole generations of them - and I am pretty certain it wasn't always like that. Why doesn't the government try to address these issues first? Maybe that would also send a message out to potential immigrants who do not want to work (although to all intends an purposes I doubt that this applies to the majority of immigrants).

 

I wish that the people who want to vote out, could experience life in Europe for a while to see the difference in culture and mentality to understand how things work in other countries. People always tell me that the roads and everything is so clean and efficient where I am from - has nothing to do whatsoever with the EU. It has to do with the people and the culture. Unless YOU change, nothing will ever change here - and the UK will certainly not suddenly become like Switzerland or Norway. These countries are prosperous NOT because they are not in the EU but because of the way their government works and the culture of the people.

 

I also wonder how the out voters can guarantee that the money we save will be put back into the NHS and other services? Who gives you that guarantee? I feel that the UK is very money oriented and unless someone receives a profit somewhere the service will no longer be pursued or it will be privatised - as a result, things no longer work as well as they should.

 

Don't get me wrong - I love the UK for so many other reasons but at the moment I feel a bit low about the way I think many in the UK feel about me and other EU immigrants (or Expats as they like to call the ones that work here in more desirable jobs..lol..so hypocritical). When I speak to my neighbours they are all curious about the way I feel and to be honest, although I personally am not worried or totally for or against staying in the EU, I feel more puzzled than anything else as to why anyone would vote for something that gives us no guarantee that it will work. It's all very vague and although the EU is not perfect, why throw the baby out with the bathwater? My husband also has an Irish passport so if push comes to shove, we can always move elsewhere.

 

But I feel for the people who don't have family here and might have to go back after years of living and working here. Will the government ask us to earn at least 35 k? Do we need to be in a desirable profession? Will we have to have a British passport to be treated as equals which costs over 1200 quid (and have to give up our own nationality?) Will we be made redundant because the company we work for will have to move or doesn't want to pay for work visas?

 

Although according to my neighbour (who, like so many other out-voters) has it all figured out, promised me that people "like me" will never be kicked out! Phew!

[saunaman]

Does anyone know who will be overseeing the count in Sheffield as independent witnesses and how close to the counting tables will they be allowed?

 

Will polling stations be providing pencils or pens?

 

I'd have thought that votes on the day would be in ink...can you imagine signing such as a mortgage agreement or bank loan using a pencil??

 

Someone once said that the votes don't count, what matters is those who count the votes.

 

Not that I'm cynical or anything.....

[Tomjames]

Does anyone know who will be overseeing the count in Sheffield as independent witnesses and how close to the counting tables will they be allowed?

 

Will polling stations be providing pencils or pens?

 

I'd have thought that votes on the day would be in ink...can you imagine signing such as a mortgage agreement or bank loan using a pencil??

 

Someone once said that the votes don't count, what matters is those who count the votes.

 

Not that I'm cynical or anything.....

 

Well you do the marking off in a booth. Could always take own pen. I think its pencils. ..was at the local elections.

 

---------- Post added 01-06-2016 at 09:32 ----------

 

Wetherspoons pubs are going to supply beer mats with the message, lets get out of this corrupt union before its to late.

If we don't do it this time we never will

OUT, OUT, OUT.

 

Tim Martin wants out but read a good article in his wetherspoons magazine last night.

Fair play he allowed cross examination and it does seem like there is a strong argument for many businesses to stay in the EU.

 

---------- Post added 01-06-2016 at 09:34 ----------

 

We will find after the referendum results have been analysed that the wealthiest in society mostly voted for Remain. While the poorest will mostly vote for Leave.

 

Smash the rich! Leave the EU.

 

---------- Post added 01-06-2016 at 08:41 ----------

 

The poorest in society are suffering because of the European Union. The higher up the wealth table one climbs, the greater the benefit from EU membership one experiences.

 

The European Union is a capitalist club created to benefit the rich, at the expense of the poor. Smash the rich! Leave the EU!

 

Certainly an argument for that. Although Gove & johnson aren't poor.

 

---------- Post added 01-06-2016 at 09:35 ----------

 

Twenty three days and counting!

 

Getting bored now tbh.

[samssong]

Does anyone know who will be overseeing the count in Sheffield as independent witnesses and how close to the counting tables will they be allowed?

 

Will polling stations be providing pencils or pens?

 

I'd have thought that votes on the day would be in ink...can you imagine signing such as a mortgage agreement or bank loan using a pencil??

 

Someone once said that the votes don't count, what matters is those who count the votes.

 

Not that I'm cynical or anything.....

The postal votes are a big worry as well.