EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[L00b]

Very few people are xenophobic, but there are plenty of bigoted people willing to call someone xenophobic.

You are nothing if not entertaining, sutty

It is not automatically xenophobic to assert that net migration is higher than is desirable.

In complete agreement with that.

 

The problem as I see it, is that the over-simplistic and populist rethoric of the Brexit/Leave campaign in action is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator of xenophobic tendencies, much more than engage in a rational debate about the socio-economic aspects of the matter, continually misrepresenting as it does the relevance of the EU to the UK's immigration policies, when it's not outright lying about it.

 

The same problem arose last summer about the mass immigration of refugees and economical migrants into the EU. Arch-liberals with a soft humanist side suppressed any serious debating about the short/medium term socio-economic consequences of the event, their opposite on the political spectrum just vociferated about the muslimification of Europe by the 5th Islamist column, and never was the time given to those somewhat in middle, receptive to the human plight of refugees but sufficiently rational to understand and accept that we can't take them all, never mind at once, nor without proper vetting/processing procedures in place.

 

The clearest and personally-closest example of this I ran to, is again with reference to some friends and acquaintances who, in casual conversations, said that they were receptive to the Leave case about immigration. At which point, when I reminded them that I was an EU citizen whereby, under those arguments (and ensuing policies in case of a Brexit), I may well have to obtain permission to remain and work in the UK, and may well be denied and so have to leave my work, home and family, they expressed shocked dismay, then reassurances that "it wouldn't apply to me", that I was "not like them", <etc.>

 

Last I checked, on paper and legally, I'm no different to a browner EU citizen (I'm white), to a Muslim EU citizen (I'm Christian), to a German/Polish/Roma/<etc.> EU citizen...so how am I "not like them", I ask? Unsurprisingly, no reply, just uncomfortable stance/silence and then I very quickly change the subject.

Edited June 1, 2016 by L00b

[Shef1985]

No, he fights for peoples genuine concerns.

 

An admitted Thatcherite fights for the concerns of the working man. Do me a favour.

[unbeliever]

The problem as I see it, is that the over-simplistic and populist rethoric of the Brexit/Leave campaign in action is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator of xenophobic tendencies, much more than engage in a rational debate about the socio-economic aspects of the matter, continually misrepresenting as it does the relevance of the EU to the UK's immigration policies, when it's not outright lying about it.

 

The same problem arose last summer about the mass immigration of refugees and economical migrants into the EU. Arch-liberals with a soft humanist side suppressed any serious debating about the short/medium term socio-economic consequences of the event, their opposite on the political spectrum just vociferated about the muslimification of Europe by the 5th Islamist column, and never was the time given to those somewhat in middle, receptive to the human plight of refugees but sufficiently rational to understand and accept that we can't take them all, never mind at once, nor without proper vetting/processing procedures in place.

 

Yes. It's depressingly difficult to have a reasoned, rational debate about immigration in the UK. Perhaps in Europe as a whole. We're so polarised about the matter.

I work at the university where there is a strong "let them all in without question" movement which as you point out is quite irrational.

I have a lot to say about the Islam question, but it's not practical to engage in such discussion on this Forum so I shall hold my tongue. Besides it's not what this thread is about.

 

---------- Post added 01-06-2016 at 14:07 ----------

 

An admitted Thatcherite fights for the concerns of the working man. Do me a favour.

 

At the risk of derailing this thread, that's nonsense. The question in UK politics is not about whether to help the "working man", but about whether it is best to do this by state activity (i.e. the PTB spending his money for him).

 

---------- Post added 01-06-2016 at 14:14 ----------

 

Last I checked, on paper and legally, I'm no different to a browner EU citizen (I'm white), to a Muslim EU citizen (I'm Christian), to a German/Polish/Roma/<etc.> EU citizen...so how am I "not like them", I ask? Unsurprisingly, no reply, just uncomfortable stance/silence and then I very quickly change the subject.

 

I would guess that you're either French, Belgian or Swiss as you have given your location in French (I suppose you could also be from Luxembourg or at a push Italy. I'm excluding Monaco as I don't think they're in the EU). Can't really narrow it down further based on religion.

If you were a US citizen, previously granted indefinite leave to remain, applying for citizenship; or a US citizen on a visa in full time employment, applying for indefinite leave to remain... Do you think the UK authorities would grant the application?

I shall be disappointed if you don't respond to this point as it is quite different from the "silence" you're complaining about from Brexiters.

Edited June 1, 2016 by unbeliever

[Shef1985]

At the risk of derailing this thread, that's nonsense. The question in UK politics is not about whether to help the "working man", but about whether it is best to do this by state activity.

 

Let's agree to disagree. My opinion is UKIP are right of the tory party and would do nothing for the many disenfranchised Labour voters that currently lend their support. However they appeal to those voters with lots of rhetoric about immigration which has seen them come second in Sheffield, in areas such as Brightside which would never dream of voting tory yet somehow are willing to vote for a party built on Thatcherism, which they despise.

[unbeliever]

Let's agree to disagree. My opinion is UKIP are right of the tory party and would do nothing for the many disenfranchised Labour voters that currently lend their support. However they appeal to those voters with lots of rhetoric about immigration which has seen them come second in Sheffield, in areas such as Brightside which would never dream of voting tory yet somehow are willing to vote for a party built on Thatcherism, which they despise.

 

They've been trained for 2 or 3 generations to despise the Conservative party. With UKIP they simply vote on policy. I worry sometimes too.

Edited June 1, 2016 by unbeliever

[L00b]

If you were a US citizen, previously granted indefinite leave to remain, applying for citizenship; or a US citizen on a visa in full time employment, applying for indefinite leave to remain...Do you think the UK authorities would grant the application?

I'm neither, and the US brother in law only just got in so he's a long way to being in that situation, so no idea.

 

What I do know, albeit only from casual conversation with a couple of immigration public service workers I was in touch with (re. US b-i-l procedure) and a lot of anecdotal evidence on forums like mumsnet and others (threads by UK and foreign spouses in the same procedure, useful for 'insider' info), is that the UK government has been tightening the screws a lot internally, in a (vain) attempt to match the government's promises, wherein the refusals are allegedly through the roof relative to a few years ago.

 

"Past performance is never any guarantee of future performance" and all that. Works both ways, and possible more ways still.

[unbeliever]

I'm neither, and the US brother in law only just got in so he's a long way to being in that situation, so no idea.

 

What I do know, albeit only from casual conversation with a couple of immigration public service workers I was in touch with (re. US b-i-l procedure) and a lot of anecdotal evidence on forums like mumsnet and others (threads by UK and foreign spouses in the same procedure, useful for 'insider' info), is that the UK government has been tightening the screws a lot internally, in a (vain) attempt to match the government's promises, wherein the refusals are allegedly through the roof relative to a few years ago.

 

"Past performance is never any guarantee of future performance" and all that. Works both ways, and possible more ways still.

 

I have several colleagues who were born outside the EU and have been through the process of naturalisation in the UK. It's slow, but they've never been close to being ejected.

I'm confident that if you have been resident in the UK for a matter of years and you are paying your own way, your residency is not in jeopardy.

Having said that, I can completely understand your concerns and those of Uk citizens in a similar position on the continent.

Nobody who suggests aggressive re-patriation of EU citizens post-Brexit will get my support, but I am emphatically not content to be an EU citizen myself. Problems may arise more rapidly for EU citizens who have not been here long and/or are partly or wholly dependent on state housing or benefits.

If you're settled in the UK, have you considered applying for citizenship before the matter comes to a head. https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen/check-if-you-can-apply. If the UK remains part of the EU, no harm done. If not, you may save yourself a lot of stress.

Edited June 1, 2016 by unbeliever

[panzer1]

If I as an average ( I believe ) working class man who has held a job that required exams and therefore provided a decent salary due to my qualifications explain to you why I am voting leave maybe you will understand a bit better. First and foremost let's deal with immigration, those that are here now post Brexit should stay if they want, benefits should be cut for everybody so that they act as first intended as a safety net not a way of life.

 

Why I want to leave cannot be measured, it is not a tangible thing. It has no value that can be bought using pounds and pence.

It is that feeling inside that I do not like being told what to do by someone I have no control over. I know there is an Europe parlaiment which to me is basically a place where different groups band together to get their own ways and where minor groups are outvoted by blocks such as the eastern countries, or France and Germany banding together. When said and done the real power is held by tusk and junker, laws are put to the parlaiment and if they get passed great, if not they are passed as regulations and no vote is needed.

Laws are passed that do not take into account my way of life, they may be brought in to rectify some problem in Latvia but are an eu wide thing so affect me. The Eurocrats are unelected, when junker was " elected " there was only his name on the ballot paper, that's eu democracy for you.

I do not like the eu as I believe it to be anti democratic and just a way to build a new empire to rival old Rome, where as now junker is the president onc the eu has its own army ( never happen I hear you say, we have a veto etc, ) what's to stop the post being titled emperor.

The best way I can describe how I feel is how a slave must have felt towards its master, what right do you have to tell me what to do when I have no control over what you tell me and no course to remove you should I disagree with what you are ordering me to do.

That is why I am voting out because it's worth more to me than money. Some will argue that the eu can change and that we must stay to help do that from within. Well I do not believe that, up until last couple of weeks most heads of govts in the eu did not think there was the slightest possibility we may leave, second thoughts might have set in now as apparently plan Bs are being prepared.

I believe that this may be the reason or similar why people want to leave, I hope I have explained it adequately to you that wish to remain. I applaud your economic arguments and the various sources you quote to back them up but my reason for leaving is more than that and I havevtried to express it above but even that does not adequately explain it.

[unbeliever]

If I as an average ( I believe ) working class man who has held a job that required exams and therefore provided a decent salary due to my qualifications explain to you why I am voting leave maybe you will understand a bit better. First and foremost let's deal with immigration, those that are here now post Brexit should stay if they want, benefits should be cut for everybody so that they act as first intended as a safety net not a way of life.

 

Why I want to leave cannot be measured, it is not a tangible thing. It has no value that can be bought using pounds and pence.

It is that feeling inside that I do not like being told what to do by someone I have no control over. I know there is an Europe parlaiment which to me is basically a place where different groups band together to get their own ways and where minor groups are outvoted by blocks such as the eastern countries, or France and Germany banding together. When said and done the real power is held by tusk and junker, laws are put to the parlaiment and if they get passed great, if not they are passed as regulations and no vote is needed.

Laws are passed that do not take into account my way of life, they may be brought in to rectify some problem in Latvia but are an eu wide thing so affect me. The Eurocrats are unelected, when junker was " elected " there was only his name on the ballot paper, that's eu democracy for you.

I do not like the eu as I believe it to be anti democratic and just a way to build a new empire to rival old Rome, where as now junker is the president onc the eu has its own army ( never happen I hear you say, we have a veto etc, ) what's to stop the post being titled emperor.

The best way I can describe how I feel is how a slave must have felt towards its master, what right do you have to tell me what to do when I have no control over what you tell me and no course to remove you should I disagree with what you are ordering me to do.

That is why I am voting out because it's worth more to me than money. Some will argue that the eu can change and that we must stay to help do that from within. Well I do not believe that, up until last couple of weeks most heads of govts in the eu did not think there was the slightest possibility we may leave, second thoughts might have set in now as apparently plan Bs are being prepared.

I believe that this may be the reason or similar why people want to leave, I hope I have explained it adequately to you that wish to remain. I applaud your economic arguments and the various sources you quote to back them up but my reason for leaving is more than that and I havevtried to express it above but even that does not adequately explain it.

 

At the risk of losing a valuable Brexit vote, I think many of your concerns are extremely unlikely. I also find the EU to have limited democratic and accountability credentials, but it's not as bad as you suggest.

 

The power within the EU is divided between the elected heads of government of the member nations, the MEPs and the commission. Now the commission is very powerful and not directly elected, but they can in principle be fired en-masse by the MEPs and they are appointed by the heads of government. The link between the votes of the EU citizens and the leaders of the EU is not as weak as you appear to fear.

 

My view is that democratic accountability within the EU is weak, but it is by no means non-existent. There are limits to what the EU PTB can get away with in terms of acting against the wished of the EU demos and it's very hard to see how it could become some kind of dictatorship without being stopped by the peoples of the EU.

 

The problem to my mind is that we are changing from a nation of 60 million with a lot in common into a super-nation of 500 million with a fair amount less in common. If the EU does things we don't like (which it does) and that our national government would not do, it is usually because that is the will of our European friends and we (the UK people) as a voice in a chorus, do not have the authority to stop them.

Edited June 1, 2016 by unbeliever

[sutty27]

I never said it was! I said it was naïve to suggest xenophobia plays little part in the reasoning of few Brexiters.

 

Your guess would be wrong. It depends very much on what 'type' of foreigner!

 

An opinion based on your own prejudices.