EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[unbeliever]

Ukrainians camping out for weeks in their country to demand their ruler delivers on closer ties with the EU is the EU starting a civil war?...........what planet are you on?

 

Half the Ukrainian people want to be European and half want to be Russian.

When the EU supported a coup by the pro-Europeans against the pro-Russians, all hell broke loose. If they'd left it alone none of this would have happened.

 

---------- Post added 17-06-2015 at 06:16 ----------

 

I'll be voting 'No' in the EU referendum.

 

The EU has done huge damage to the United Kingdom and I strongly believe that we should leave. It has enabled the corporations to exploit workers in the UK by advocating the mass immigration seen since 2004. The mass immigration was aimed at lowering labour costs as business couldn't increase profit margins anywhere else.

 

The EU has also undermined the sovereignty of the UK as the government has to abide the EU rulings - whether or not it agrees with them. We are a democracy and it is up to us as voters to punish parliament by voting out its members.

 

Also, I really object to the way the EU interferes in nearly all aspects of our life. On any matter the EU has to either express an opinion, condemn it, issue a ruling against something (prisoners right to vote) or call for a summit (an example being the recent illegal immigrants flooding into Italy).

 

I'll definitely be voting 'No' and there's no prospect of me changing my mind!

 

Hear, hear.

[chalga]

Half the Ukrainian people want to be European and half want to be Russian.

When the EU supported a coup by the pro-Europeans against the pro-Russians, all hell broke loose. If they'd left it alone none of this would have happened.

 

There was a clear majority in opinion polls who wanted to be part of the EU in Ukraine,there was no coup to be supported,Yanukovich fled the country of his own accord,he was replaced in a democratic vote by a pro EU president.The EU didn't tell Russian proxies to invade Crimea or continue to Donbass,Russia backed them and supported them of their own accord,nothing to do with the EU.

[retep]

That the Gerard Batten UKIP MEP?

 

Is that a regular thing with UKIP posters, quoting their own (biased in the extreme) party sources to backup anti-EU opinions? It's not exactly balanced.

 

---------- Post added 16-06-2015 at 23:33 ----------

 

So, having read that report which leads you to conclude that the economic effect is marginal, and so focused on the politics...what can you tell me about the socio-economic consequences to gearing the UK for achieving the 'best' positive 1% outcome?

 

Yes it is, and he seems more enlightened than yourself.

[tzijlstra]

Half the Ukrainian people want to be European and half want to be Russian.

When the EU supported a coup by the pro-Europeans against the pro-Russians, all hell broke loose. If they'd left it alone none of this would have happened.

 

Hear, hear.

 

Funny how, when it is positive to have shared defence and foreign policy, it is the NATO and certainly not the EU that does things and when it isn't positive it is most definitely the EU. Let's not mention the US' role in this, it looks better that way?

 

I'll be voting 'No' in the EU referendum.

 

The EU has done huge damage to the United Kingdom and I strongly believe that we should leave. It has enabled the corporations to exploit workers in the UK by advocating the mass immigration seen since 2004. The mass immigration was aimed at lowering labour costs as business couldn't increase profit margins anywhere else.

 

The EU has also undermined the sovereignty of the UK as the government has to abide the EU rulings - whether or not it agrees with them. We are a democracy and it is up to us as voters to punish parliament by voting out its members.

 

Also, I really object to the way the EU interferes in nearly all aspects of our life. On any matter the EU has to either express an opinion, condemn it, issue a ruling against something (prisoners right to vote) or call for a summit (an example being the recent illegal immigrants flooding into Italy).

 

I'll definitely be voting 'No' and there's no prospect of me changing my mind!

 

How has the EU damaged the UK when, since the UK joined the EU and the EU grew in strength the UK economy has only grown stronger?

 

Sovereignty was discussed in detail, this seems to be a difficult point for a lot of people to understand, I will elaborate on it later when I find some time.

 

Yes it is, and he seems more enlightened than yourself.

 

Does he? I hope he is using energy saving bulbs.

[I1L2T3]

Ideally yes, but I'll take what I can get.

If we're only in the single market we get a lot (if not all) of our sovereignty back.

 

---------- Post added 16-06-2015 at 20:41 ----------

 

 

That's surely speculation. What's it based on?

We have strong ties with the US going back over 100 years.

NATO is what won the last cold war. The EU was still in nappies.

All the EU has done so far in Foreign affairs is start a civil war in Ukraine.

 

How are you "Still waiting for a positive assessment"? Have you been reading my posts?

Reduced regulatory compliance costs.

Cheaper Energy.

The right to make free trade agreements in less than 25 years (and counting).

 

All the non-political economic assessments I can find suggest a total effect on UK GDP of plus or minus less than 1% over the next 15 years depending on how the trade agreements pan out and how much domestic deregulation we go in for. That's not <1% per year. But <1% total, so maybe 0.05% per year compounded.

Here's one: http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/.

That's why I've been focusing on the politics. The economic effect is likely rather small and could go either way.

Anybody have any links to more dramatic predictions (by genuine non-political experts)?

 

Not speculation at all. The US wants us to remain in the EU. We've already had the shots across the bows from them.

 

As for your economic case, the compliance costs still apply if we stay in the single market. We would still have to pay practically the same costs of membership as now. The only way to escape that is to exit the single market altogether but then you are taking a suicidal economic risk with 50% of our trade.

 

And, really what I meant with the positive case is I haven't seen a single comprehensive study that models exit in a positive way. All the studies seem to point to serious economic downsides with few upsides. Ukip to the best of my knowledge have never published anything that models GDP, jobs etc... Odd that.......

[unbeliever]

Not speculation at all. The US wants us to remain in the EU. We've already had the shots across the bows from them.

 

 

That's a very long way from the idea that they'd resist a free trade deal with an independent UK.

 

 

As for your economic case, the compliance costs still apply if we stay in the single market. We would still have to pay practically the same costs of membership as now. The only way to escape that is to exit the single market altogether but then you are taking a suicidal economic risk with 50% of our trade.

 

 

That's not what any of the experts say. It is ridiculous to suggest that the EU wouldn't trade with an independent UK as they've already emphatically stated otherwise.

 

 

 

And, really what I meant with the positive case is I haven't seen a single comprehensive study that models exit in a positive way. All the studies seem to point to serious economic downsides with few upsides. Ukip to the best of my knowledge have never published anything that models GDP, jobs etc... Odd that.......

 

The independent studies I can find suggest that Brexit would be neutral at worst. I asked this before, but I'll try again. I posted a link to the one of the expert studies I'm taking my facts from. Where's your link? If I don't get one, I'm going to assume that you're just making things up.

[L00b]

Yes it is, and he seems more enlightened than yourself.

LOL! OK peter

 

Here's a university professor who seems to know a tad more than your MEP about how Brexiting under Article 50 TEU would work in practice.

 

Any mention that "renegotiation would not begin until two years later"? Nope, because there is no provision or mechanism that allows postponement of the official notification by 2 years. There's also a useful and very accessible legal analysis about the (non-)possibility of extending negotiations for the exit agreement 'indefinitely'.

 

I like my 'sources of enlightenment' to be academic...less of a self-serving bias permeating the analysis, you see

The independent studies I can find suggest that Brexit would be neutral at worst. I asked this before, but I'll try again. I posted a link to the one of the expert studies I'm taking my facts from.

About that 'neutral at worst' study...do you mind considering my earlier question?

<...>So, having read that report which leads you to conclude that the economic effect is marginal, and so focused on the politics...what can you tell me about the socio-economic consequences to gearing the UK for achieving the 'best' positive 1% outcome?

Edited June 17, 2015 by L00b

[unbeliever]

There was a clear majority in opinion polls who wanted to be part of the EU in Ukraine,there was no coup to be supported,Yanukovich fled the country of his own accord,he was replaced in a democratic vote by a pro EU president.The EU didn't tell Russian proxies to invade Crimea or continue to Donbass,Russia backed them and supported them of their own accord,nothing to do with the EU.

 

How do you "[flee] of your own accord" ?

To flee means to run away from danger.

 

---------- Post added 17-06-2015 at 08:45 ----------

 

So, having read that report which leads you to conclude that the economic effect is marginal, and so focused on the politics...what can you tell me about the socio-economic consequences to gearing the UK for achieving the 'best' positive 1% outcome?

 

Less government intervention in our day to day lives. Less government total. The freedom to make our own decisions. The genuine power to hold those in charge to account.

Looks all rosy to me.

 

Now where's that link to an independent expert study suggesting that there'd be noticeable economic fall-out from leaving the EU.

As I said, you've already had mine showing that there's zero chance of such a thing.

Edited June 17, 2015 by unbeliever

[L00b]

How do you "[flee] of your own accord"?

It means you decide to flee, instead of deciding to stay and face that danger. Any other non-sequiturs to expect today?

[unbeliever]

It means you decide to flee, instead of deciding to stay and face that danger. Any other non-sequiturs to expect today?

 

So you mean that he was still in control of his own legs. Bit redundant then really was it not? So you concede that the pro-EU forces in Ukraine ousted the pro-Russian president under threat of violence.