Shef1985 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Right. So we have to choose between sovereignty and the supposed prosperity arising from EU membership. Thank you. Could you please explain this to I1L2T3. I1L2T3 I think unbeliever is saying bedamned British business, setting our own VAT in future takes precedence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) I1L2T3 I think unbeliever is saying bedamned British business, setting our own VAT in future takes precedence. No. I'm saying that a sovereign nation is free to make all its own laws. The points I have made about VAT etc I have used to illustrate that point. I have also said multiple times, if you read back, that I am highly sceptical of the prophecies of economic woe. If my opponents will stop denying the loss of sovereignty, we can move on. Perhaps you can help persuade them ---------- Post added 02-06-2016 at 22:52 ---------- So how has the Lisbon Treaty changed your life? My point being, I don't believe that the Lisbon Treaty pushed our country into a lot closer integration. You believe incorrectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon Edited June 2, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 You believe incorrectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon I've read it, and I stand by my statement. So how has the Lisbon Treaty impacted upon your life? If not, how has it impacted upon this country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) I've read it, and I stand by my statement. So how has the Lisbon Treaty impacted upon your life? If not, how has it impacted upon this country? It transferred power from national governments to the EU and eroded my nation's sovereignty. You said that we need not fear further integration as there would certainly be a referendum. The government which signed the Lisbon treaty had a promise of a referendum on the matter in their manifesto. Whilst no new competencies were explicitly transferred by this treaty, many (dozens of) matters which before this treaty required unanimous consent from the member nations were converted to qualified majority voting. That means that as of this treaty, there is very little that the UK can veto. I suppose you don't think that constitutes a loss of sovereignty or an integration? Edited June 2, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 It transferred power from national governments to the EU and eroded my nation's sovereignty. You said that we need not fear further integration as there would certainly be a referendum. The government which signed the Lisbon treaty had a promise of a referendum on the matter in their manifesto. I said if EU changes it's current stance and insists on much closer integration. Currently it's happy for us to be outside of the Eurozone and the Schengen Area, there is also an acknowledgement that the UK will not integrate like other EU countries in what has become a Multi-speed/Two-speed Europe. If any of these things changed and the UK was expected to give up it's opt outs, then I'd expect another referendum. Unless of course a political party fought and won an election on that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I'm not remotely drunk, but I seem to be having trouble understanding my opponents this evening. Are you saying that we can remain in the EU and still change our laws such that they are in conflict with EU directives? ---------- Post added 02-06-2016 at 22:38 ---------- I've just double-checked and it's definitely coke zero I'm drinking and it doesn't smell spiked. A sovereign nation is free to make all its own laws. We are free to make all our own laws. We are not coerced into anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy lady Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Has anyone actually worked out the Labour Party line on the referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sibon Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Has anyone actually worked out the Labour Party line on the referendum? Is it a Party issue? I'd say not. The Tories seem to be doing their usual self-immolation though. At this rate, we will be lucky (or unlucky) to have a credible Government left in a month's time. Don't you worry about Labour. The Tories are always the story when Europe rears its head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 No. I'm saying that a sovereign nation is free to make all its own laws. The points I have made about VAT etc I have used to illustrate that point. I have also said multiple times, if you read back, that I am highly sceptical of the prophecies of economic woe. If my opponents will stop denying the loss of sovereignty, we can move on. Perhaps you can help persuade them ---------- Post added 02-06-2016 at 22:52 ---------- You believe incorrectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon I know you are sceptical of economic woe. I am sceptical of Brexit saying 'we simply don't know! But, fingers crossed aye? If you lose your job, oh well, at least we can reduce VAT from 15%....' So I think I will refrain from trying to persuade Remainers that sovereignty is an issue, ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Example: I'd like quite a lot more goods to be zero rated for VAT.. The Government agree with the EU, they do not want them zero rated. ---------- Post added 03-06-2016 at 00:18 ---------- What part of "example" was confusing? Example 2: I'd like a change of energy policy which is incompatible with EU rules. Is it compatible with our own law on limiting CO2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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