EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[unbeliever]

The Government agree with the EU, they do not want them zero rated.

 

I have no idea where you get this from.

 

 

 

Is it compatible with our own law on limiting CO2?

 

Any new law we make after Brexit, if incompatible with an existing law, overrules that law. Parliament is sovereign.

Besides which, renewables are not the only way to reduce CO2.

 

 

---------- Post added 03-06-2016 at 07:53 ----------

 

We are free to make all our own laws. We are not coerced into anything.

 

Who said anything about coercion. We are forbidden by the terms of our membership of the EU from making certainly laws, and failing to make certain other laws.

 

What is it exactly that you're quibbling about?

Are you trying to say that as long as we still have the power to unilaterally withdraw from the EU, we've lost nothing?

 

That's a con. A play on words. It goes something like: "There's no need to leave the EU to restore sovereignty because we can always restore our sovereignty by leaving the EU."

Edited June 3, 2016 by unbeliever

[I1L2T3]

I know you are sceptical of economic woe. I am sceptical of Brexit saying 'we simply don't know! But, fingers crossed aye? If you lose your job, oh well, at least we can reduce VAT from 15%....'

 

So I think I will refrain from trying to persuade Remainers that sovereignty is an issue, ta.

 

We can already reduce VAT on certain goods and services. The UK uses a reduced rate of 5% which is already much lower than the reduced rates of most other EU members.

[unbeliever]

We can already reduce VAT on certain goods and services. The UK uses a reduced rate of 5% which is already much lower than the reduced rates of most other EU members.

 

The ECJ recently ruled the UK's 5% VAT rate on solar panels, wind turbines and energy saving materials illegal. This effectively amounts to an order to increase the rate to 20%.

Now this is still going back and forth, so far all it's done is create a great deal of uncertainty in the industry (which the remainers tell me is a very bad thing).

I was concerted with my goal of zero rating certain things. It seems that even before you get to zero, at 5%, you're likely to fall foul of European law.

Unlike the ECHR (which often gets confused with the ECJ); the day we leave the EU, the ECJ loses all power over us.

 

But I1L2T3 says that we're still sovereign so that's okay.

[I1L2T3]

I have no idea where you get this from.

 

 

 

 

Any new law we make after Brexit, if incompatible with an existing law, overrules that law. Parliament is sovereign.

Besides which, renewables are not the only way to reduce CO2.

 

 

---------- Post added 03-06-2016 at 07:53 ----------

 

 

Who said anything about coercion. We are forbidden by the terms of our membership of the EU from making certainly laws, and failing to make certain other laws.

 

What is it exactly that you're quibbling about?

Are you trying to say that as long as we still have the power to unilaterally withdraw from the EU, we've lost nothing?

 

That's a con. A play on words. It goes something like: "There's no need to leave the EU to restore sovereignty because we can always restore our sovereignty by leaving the EU."

 

It's only a con to you if you don't or won't understand the concept of sharing/pooling sovereignty. We cooperate in many spheres with other countries, pooling sovereignty in much the same way. The EU is obviously the major example but it is not the only one.

 

If you understand that we have chosen to share decision making in these ways then it should be clear we have not given up any sovereignty.

 

I understand your argument but you have anchored it to the language of the dog whistles being used.

 

---------- Post added 03-06-2016 at 08:15 ----------

 

The ECJ recently ruled the UK's 5% VAT rate on solar panels, wind turbines and energy saving materials illegal. This effectively amounts to an order to increase the rate to 20%.

Now this is still going back and forth, so far all it's done is create a great deal of uncertainty in the industry (which the remainers tell me is a very bad thing).

I was concerted with my goal of zero rating certain things. It seems that even before you get to zero, at 5%, you're likely to fall foul of European law.

Unlike the ECHR (which often gets confused with the ECJ); the day we leave the EU, the ECJ loses all power over us.

 

But I1L2T3 says that we're still sovereign so that's okay.

 

Its a bit rich to claim that the VAT rate is what is killing the renewables industries when the whole industry is up in arms over the Tory's domestic (sovereign decision to you I guess) and damaging decision to slash subsidies.

 

This is what I hate about the remain campaign. It's reduced to digging out and bigging up edge case arguments and wrapping them with dog whistle language.

 

We can already zero rate certain things. This may me one of the areas where we push to use our opt-out. But I think you know that the Tories aren't going to champion the renewable energy industry.

[sutty27]

It's only a con to you if you don't or won't understand the concept of sharing/pooling sovereignty. We cooperate in many spheres with other countries, pooling sovereignty in much the same way. The EU is obviously the major example but it is not the only one.

 

If you understand that we have chosen to share decision making in these ways then it should be clear we have not given up any sovereignty.

 

 

Would you be happy to pool sovereignty on your street and only do in your house what the majority say you can and can not do, or do you want to be master of your own household and do what ever you like in your own house?

 

The British population didn't choose to share decision making with the rest of the EU, but do we finally get to choose in a couple of weeks time.

Edited June 3, 2016 by sutty27

[L00b]

Would you be happy to pool sovereignty on your street and only do in your house what the majority say you can and can not do, or do you want to be master of your own household and do what ever you like in your own house?

Depend how much you need the neighbours on the street in order to survive and prosper in the city

The British population didn't choose to share decision making with the rest of the EU, but do we finally get to choose in a couple of weeks time.

In most fundamental policy areas (monetary, budget, taxation, defence, foreign policy, <etc.>) the British population doesn't share decision making with the rest of the EU. Depending on the issue, either because these areas are excluded from the EU's remit altogether, or because the UK is neither a € country nor a Schengen signatory, or because the UK enjoys specific opt-outs (many negotiated and obtained at the time of the Lisbon Treaty).

 

In policy areas that are material to the correct and fair functioning of the entire Common Market (standards, working conditions, trading practices, <etc.>), unsurprisingly the British population does share decision making with the rest of the EU, to prevent anti-competitive practices and dumping between EU member states.

 

That's in part why the VAT regime (specifically) is harmonised: to ensure that a UK importer of Chinese solar panels does not get a leg up on a Spanish importer of the same Chinese solar panels in the EU market, by charging the UK's 0% VAT to EU customers when the Spaniard would have to charge the Spanish 20% VAT to EU customers. Not harmonising the VAT regime would inevitably result in a competitive race to the bottom between EU member states, notionally resulting in 0% VAT rates on everything and a corresponding loss of tax income for all.

Edited June 3, 2016 by L00b

[sutty27]

Depend how much you need the neighbours on the street in order to survive and prosper in the city

 

Is prosperity more important than the freedom to make your own choices?

 

I'm not that materialistic so freedom is more important.

[L00b]

Is prosperity more important than the freedom to make your own choices?

I daresay it underpins it. You only need to look at Greece (irrespective of the fact that it's the EU and the IMF turning the screws on them), Zimbabwe, <etc.> basically, pick any country in the world without much prosperity if any.

 

Basic public services (health, social care, policing <...>) must be provided, and therefore funded, lest there be anarchy. How do you fund them without prosperity? With international money markets. And as always, he who pays the piper names the tune: the more in hock to international money markets you are, the more choices they make for you.

I'm not that materialistic so freedom is more important.

I'd certainly never say that money buys you happiness. Just that it contributes to it greatly

 

Many Brexiters (and Remainers, and Undecideds) want more money for the NHS. Putting aside any debate about the wisdom of doing that, I've got news for them: the State has to earn that extra money in the first place, before it can spend it on the NHS. Effectively meaning that the private sector has to generate still more taxable added value through trade for generating the additional tax income. Prosperity, see?

 

Then again, as oft reminded in here, I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist. Which is probably why idealists take so much issue with my posts: it's only human to be inconvenienced by hard truths. I understand and accept that. But don't expect me to engage with the mass denial that, for many Brexiters, seems to follow the inconveniencing

Edited June 3, 2016 by L00b

[sutty27]

I daresay it underpins it. You only need to look at Greece (irrespective of the fact that it's the EU and the IMF turning the screws on them), Zimbabwe, <etc.> basically, pick any country in the world without much prosperity if any.

 

Basic public services (health, social care, policing <...>) must be provided, and therefore funded, lest there be anarchy. How do you fund them without prosperity? With international money markets. And as always, he who pays the piper names the tune: the more in hock to international money markets you are, the more choices they make for you.

I'd certainly never say that money buys you happiness. Just that it contributes to it greatly

 

Then again, as oft reminded in here, I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist. Which is probably why idealists take so much issue with my posts: it's only human to be inconvenienced by hard truths. I understand and accept that. But don't expect me to engage with the mass denial that, for many Brexiters, seems to follow the inconveniencing

 

Economic freedom brings greater prosperity so you should be happy that leaving the EU will give us greater economic freedom, thus greater prosperity.

[L00b]

Economic freedom brings greater prosperity so you should be happy that leaving the EU will give us greater economic freedom, thus greater prosperity.

You suggest in the above that the UK economy is captive, if I understand you correctly?

 

Now, I've got clients (manufacturers, importers/exporters and service providers) trading every day, with EU countries, the US, China, India, Australia, New Zealand, UAE and more. We ourselves trade with our opposites in these countries every day. Reciprocal services being provided, bills coming in, bills coming out. No issues, no red tape or other impediments whatsoever (...alright, maybe not for the Section 22 MoD-type stuff ). I know for a fact that it is the same for all of our UK and EU-based competitors.

 

The only glitch/red tape I've run into in recent times, is UK-enacted. It was with our opposites in the Middle East, specifically with paying them for their services. They happen to have an office in Syria (besides offices in just about every other ME country, since they've been around for decades). So our British bank (and all other main banks we approached) said, under current UK (not EU) rules, "anti-terror laws, we're not sending any payment there". We've since sorted it, thankfully. Outside the UK, inside the EU, thank God for freedom of movement of finance, else our British client would have lost their foreign IP rights and we would have carried the professional liability can.

 

So can I ask you: in what way is the UK economy captive, currently?

 

Because, at the coalface, I'm just not seeing it

 

Maybe another exporting private sector type facing EU-based restrictions or impediments can post and enlighten me?

Edited June 3, 2016 by L00b