EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[L00b]

There's no wage parity between Romania and Germany.

It's slowly working its way there, and is already pretty close for professional services (we work with both German and Romanian IP attorneys and solicitors, so have a fair idea). Unsurprisingly, since that's exactly what the EU is all about.

There's no need for wage parity if you accept that not everybody will be making the same things or providing the same services.

What things and services does the UK provide, which no other country can provide?

There's no wage parity between Romania and Germany.

There's no need for wage parity if you accept that not everybody will be making the same things or providing the same services.

How does a 10% tariff compensate for a 10000% difference in wages.

Besides other and lesser criteria, it depends how many of the CN widgets go to the EU vs other markets, and the respective productivity level of the CN worker vs the EU worker. Edited June 3, 2016 by L00b

[unbeliever]

It's slowly working its way there, and is already pretty close for professional services (we work with both German and Romanian IP attorneys and solicitors, so have a fair idea). Unsurprisingly, since that's exactly what the EU is all about.

What things and services does the UK provide, which no other country can provide?

 

That's a bogus question by any standard.

What things and services does any country provide which no other country can provide?

 

You stated that free trade doesn't work when there is a large difference in wages and that tariffs deal with this.

That's not true. For 2 reasons: 1. There are already big wage differences within the EU. 2. Tariffs can't come close to correcting for big wage differences.

That's why despite tariffs etc we're all engaging in this debate on computers either wholly or primarily made in China.

That's not a bad thing. It makes them cheaper.

Edited June 3, 2016 by unbeliever

[L00b]

That's a bogus question by any standard.

You clearly implied it in the below:

There's no need for wage parity if you accept that not everybody will be making the same things or providing the same services.

How else am I to understand the above argument?

 

As an admission that there is indeed a need for wage parity when countries make the same things and provide the same services as other countries? Whereby I refer you back to my question.

You stated that free trade doesn't work when there is a large difference in wages and that tariffs deal with this.

I have not.

 

Free trade can work perfectly fine when there is a large difference in wages and no tariffs: look at UK steel recently

 

Tariffs are meant to restore parity, and under WTO rules, 'no more than' restore parity. No parity simply means the cheapest wins. Hardly a groundbreaking outcome.

Edited June 3, 2016 by L00b

[unbeliever]

You clearly implied it in the below:

How else am I to understand the above argument?

 

As an admission that there is indeed a need for wage parity when countries make the same things and provide the same services as other countries? Whereby I refer you back to my question.

I have not.

 

Free trade can work perfectly fine when there is a large difference in wages and no tariffs: look at UK steel recently

 

Tariffs are meant to restore parity, and under WTO rules, 'no more than' restore parity.

 

No parity simply means the cheapest wins.

 

How does a 10% tariff compensate for a 10000% difference in wages?

If wage differences are such an issue, why is it okay to have a minimum wage of $3.70 in Romania and $3.26 in Bulgaria, but $10.34 in Germany and $8-$11 in the UK ?

 

What things and services does any country provide which no other country can provide?

Edited June 3, 2016 by unbeliever

[L00b]

How does a 10% tariff compensate for a 10000% difference in wages?

Already answered: besides other and lesser criteria, it depends how many of the CN widgets go to the EU vs other markets, and the respective productivity level of the CN worker vs the EU worker.

If wage differences are such an issue, why is it okay to have a minimum wage of $3.70 in Romania and $3.26 in Bulgaria, but $10.34 in Germany and $8-$11 in the UK ?

Same principle and answer as the above, transpose RO or BG for 'CN' and DE or UK for 'EU'.

 

We're talking international trade here, wherein the only indicia of reference is the price of the foreign widget landed, for comparison against the local widget.

 

Feel free to dig further if you wish, and e.g. roll into your analysis the differential in cost of living for the respective workers under comparison. It goes a long way to explain the local wage level. But is irrelevant to the foreign buyer who's just after the cheapest widget he can find.

What things and services does any country provide which no other country can provide?

I asked you first

[unbeliever]

I asked you first

 

The UK provides almost nothing that nobody else can provide.

Neither does anybody else.

I'm sure that there are a few isolated examples for some countries, but they don't add up to much.

[MobileB]

You clearly implied it in the below:

How else am I to understand the above argument?

 

As an admission that there is indeed a need for wage parity when countries make the same things and provide the same services as other countries?

I have not. Free trade can work perfectly fine when there is a large difference in wages and no tariffs. Look at UK steel recently

 

The average wage in Bulgaria is €333 per month whilst in Sweden it is €2690 per month.

The average pint of beer in Bulgaria is €0.91 whilst in Sweden it is €5.90.

 

By my calculation the pint in Bulgraria relatively speaking is 0.8% more expensive than in Sweden.

 

Not sure what the relevance is (other than Swedes could get very drunk very cheaply in Bulgaria).

 

*Luxembourg has the highest average wage in the EU at €3,198 per month but I couldn't find the average price of a pint in Luxembourg so they were excluded due to their inability to compete fairly.

[L00b]

The UK provides almost nothing that nobody else can provide.

Neither does anybody else.

And there's your fundamental issue when considering post-Brexit EU vs UK trade negotiations.

 

The UK going out of the EU will automatically loses competitiveness in some way: it couldn't possibly have identical or more favourable trading terms with the EU than it currently enjoys.

 

That means whatever commodity-type goods/services are currently sourced from the UK by EU customers through price advantage, may become less competitive relative to their EU competition, and so be replaced by it.

 

It would absolutely be the case for my industry, for starters.

Not sure what the relevance is (other than Swedes could get very drunk very cheaply in Bulgaria).

That the average wage and average living costs are very closely related. And have a direct impact of the unit cost of a widget manufactured or a service rendered there. Which matters to the foreign buyer only to the extent that it is relevant when comparing the cost of imported widgets and services against the cost of domestic ones.

*Luxembourg has the highest average wage in the EU at €3,198 per month but I couldn't find the average price of a pint in Luxembourg so they were excluded due to their inability to compete fairly.

I've been in and around Luxembourg for 2 decades (still pop over every now and then) and even lived there for a bit in the early 90s. And in Dublin for a few years, in the mid-00s...

 

...Sheffielders wouldn't believe the price of a pint if I told them

 

Put it that way: while we were in Dublin, if Mrs L00b and I planned to go out, we'd fly Mrs L00b' Mum over from the UK for babysitting, it was cheaper than using the locals (€10/h) by half. I kid you not. Next, if Brexit, we'll be going, and for now the plan is either Luxembourg or Strasbourg. But if Luxembourg, I still wouldn't live there. I'd work there and commute from nearby France.

Edited June 3, 2016 by L00b

[tinfoilhat]

The UK provides almost nothing that nobody else can provide.

Neither does anybody else.

I'm sure that there are a few isolated examples for some countries, but they don't add up to much.

 

What, like Cornish pasties etc etc?

[unbeliever]

And there's your fundamental issue when considering post-Brexit EU vs UK trade negotiations.

 

The UK going out of the EU will automatically loses competitiveness in some way: it couldn't possibly have identical or more favourable trading terms with the EU than it currently enjoys.

 

That means whatever commodity-type goods/services are currently sourced from the UK by EU customers through price advantage, may become less competitive relative to their EU competition, and so be replaced by it.

 

It would absolutely be the case for my industry, for starters.

 

Sorry to hear you may be adversely affected, but for the country as a whole we must think of it as creative destruction.

Only 7% of our companies trade with the EU. The rest will be liberated from Eu over-regulation.

I also strongly suspect that we will do a better job of arranging simple free trade deals that the EU. Along the lines of the Australia-US deal.