EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[High Greener]

None of this matters anyway.

This is a referendum and not a vote for or against UKIP.

 

Post is just an a reason to put UKIP name next to other names and throw mud in the process, it a well used tactic of the far left.

This votes about in or out, it is out for me on Democracy and immigration grounds.

[unbeliever]

You're twisting the facts again. The original issue was about Turkey and Greece. Someone got their facts wrong. I pointed this out. That person slunk away and now you're losing his battle for him.

 

I'm not interested in the initial point. I was countering your unfounded blanket assertions about Brexiters.

 

 

No one has signed off on Turkey's entry. Otherwise they'd be a member. The problem with you lot is that you consistently lie and it's easy to prove.

 

I was referring to Romania and Bulgaria. Which I think was quite clear.

 

Consider this. The UK could leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. That would mean there would still be freedom to movement to the UK. But we'd lose our right to veto Turkey. You should think about things like that.

 

Haven't we just established that Greece and Cyprus (just for starters) will veto Turkey's membership for the foreseeable future.

[L00b]

I'm not sure that China is a country that we should be looking to emulate.

There was an interview on BBC news this morning, both of the WTO boss (I already related and covered the points which he made, last week or the week before in here) and of some pro-Brexit economics Professor for balance.

 

The WTO boss made the same points as before, that the UK would have to renegotiate trading terms with the world and its dog, that it would take somewhere between 2 to 3 years for the fastest and up to 10 years for the slowest, and that -of course- no other country was beholden to the UK in any way so as to reach these agreements, whether soonest or at all.

 

The pro-Brexit economics Professor claimed, not unreasonably, that the above was only relevant if the UK was looking to adopt protectionist policies, but that since the UK was looking to exit the EU for rescinding the EU's protectionist policies (conveniently glossing over the fact that these would then apply to UK goods and services ), what the UK was actually looking at was free (i.e. free-for-all) trade, no agreements at all.

 

I was flabbergasted in equal parts at either the naivety or the sheer bad faith of this 'Professor': no agreement at all means that the UK would be competing head-to-head and no-holds-barred with Brazil, India, China, Russia and the like. I'll let you imagine what that state of affairs would do for working conditions and living standards in the UK. And none of these countries are in hock up to their eyeballs, like the UK is

 

Remember Chinese steel and Tata the other week? Imagine that situation for every last facet of the British economy.

 

@unbeliever: I'll let you imagine what that state of affairs would do to the British working poors which we discussed yesterday. Non-working poors in the BRICs starve to death. To this day still.

Haven't we just established that Greece and Cyprus (just for starters) will veto Turkey's membership for the foreseeable future.

When the UK will have to keep freedom of movement post-Brexit but get no veto, you're happy for the UK to rely entirely on these two instead, then? Well that reclaimed sovereignty lasted long Edited June 7, 2016 by L00b

[unbeliever]

Post is just an a reason to put UKIP name next to other names and throw mud in the process, it a well used tactic of the far left.

 

That was my impression.

Which was why I responded forcefully.

 

 

Thing is, I really don't want this to turn into a right/left thing.

George Osbourne is for Remain and Frank Field is for Leave.

Margaret Thatcher supported EEC membership at the last referendum and Tony Benn opposed it.

 

It's about sovereignty.

[JFKvsNixon]

Haven't we just established that Greece and Cyprus (just for starters) will veto Turkey's membership for the foreseeable future.

 

That doesn't stop many Brexit supporters using Turkey as an excuse to leave the EU.

[unbeliever]

There was an interview on BBC news this morning, both of the WTO boss (I already related and covered the points which he made, last week or the week before in here) and of some pro-Brexit economics Professor for balance.

 

The WTO boss made the same points as before, that the UK would have to renegotiate trading terms with the world its dog, that it would take somewhere between 2 to 3 years for the fastest and up to 10 years for the slowest, and that -of course- no other country was beholden to the UK in any way so as to reach these agreements, whether soonest or at all.

 

The pro-Brexit economics Professor claimed, not unreasonably, that the above was only relevant if the UK was looking to adopt protectionist policies, but that since the UK was looking to exit the EU for rescinding the EU's protectionist policies (conveniently glossing over the fact that these would then apply to UK goods and services ), what the UK was actually looking at was free (i.e. free-for-all) trade, no agreements at all.

 

I was flabbergasted in equal parts at either the naivety or the sheer bad faith of this 'Professor': no agreement at all means that the UK would be competing head-to-head and no-holds-barred with Brazil, India, China, Russia and the like. I'll let you imagine what that state of affairs would do for working conditions and living standards in the UK.

 

Remember Chinese steel and Tata the other week? Imagine that situation for every last facet of the British economy.

 

@unbeliever: I'll let you imagine what that state of affairs would do to the British working poors which we discussed yesterday.

 

Non-working poors in the BRICs starve to death. To this day still

 

It is not the terms of trade which create the difference in wages and living standards between the BRICs and the UK, it is our culture, infrastructure and skills.

 

---------- Post added 07-06-2016 at 08:59 ----------

 

That doesn't stop many Brexit supporters using Turkey as an excuse to leave the EU.

 

They're scared.

Whilst I agree that they're worried about nothing, sometimes reason is not enough to defeat fear.

[L00b]

It is not the terms of trade which create the difference in wages and living standards between the BRICs and the UK, it is our culture, infrastructure and skills.

Well, your culture, infrastructure and skills are really helping Tata steel workers and BHS retail employees, aren't they?

 

Nice ideology. If you can afford it

[unbeliever]

When the UK will have to keep freedom of movement post-Brexit but get no veto, you're happy for the UK to rely entirely on these two instead, then? Well that reclaimed sovereignty lasted long

 

Okay. Firstly we haven't established that we shall have free movement post-Brexit. All the Brexiters I've heard say that we won't and the government would not survive such a deal.

The power to determine what the EU does after we leave is not sovereignty.

 

---------- Post added 07-06-2016 at 09:04 ----------

 

Well, your culture, infrastructure and skills are really helping Tata steel workers and BHS retail employees, aren't they?

 

Nice ideology. If you can afford it

 

All this is going on whilst we're in the EU. Are you suggesting that the problems with steel and BHS are down to Brexit? If so then I'm going to assume you're on drugs.

 

It's sad. But it's creative destruction.

[L00b]

Okay. Firstly we haven't established that we shall have free movement post-Brexit. All the Brexiters I've heard say that we won't and the government would not survive such a deal.

The power to determine what the EU does after we leave is not sovereignty.

I'm content to await the outcome of negotiations after a Brexit if it happens, then to rub your nose in it. Hard

All this is going on whilst we're in the EU. Are you suggesting that the problems with steel and BHS are down to Brexit? If so then I'm going to assume you're on drugs.

 

It's sad. But it's creative destruction.

No, I'm saying that what little economic planning the thinking Brexit side (that economics professor) have put forward, will irremediably result in the exact same situation across all sectors of the UK economy opened to direct and unfettered competition from developing economies.

 

Our minimum wage does not compete with some of the least developed EU member states: there is no minimum wage in the BRICs, and by now they're just as developed as the UK, particularly in the knowledge sectors - and with a better infrastructure and work ethic (culture) than the EU member states with a lower minimum wage.

 

You can bask in your reclaimed sovereignty when you have to send your kids back down the coal pits again

Edited June 7, 2016 by L00b

[JFKvsNixon]

There was an interview on BBC news this morning, both of the WTO boss (I already related and covered the points which he made, last week or the week before in here) and of some pro-Brexit economics Professor for balance.

 

The WTO boss made the same points as before, that the UK would have to renegotiate trading terms with the world and its dog, that it would take somewhere between 2 to 3 years for the fastest and up to 10 years for the slowest, and that -of course- no other country was beholden to the UK in any way so as to reach these agreements, whether soonest or at all.

 

The pro-Brexit economics Professor claimed, not unreasonably, that the above was only relevant if the UK was looking to adopt protectionist policies, but that since the UK was looking to exit the EU for rescinding the EU's protectionist policies (conveniently glossing over the fact that these would then apply to UK goods and services ), what the UK was actually looking at was free (i.e. free-for-all) trade, no agreements at all.

 

I was flabbergasted in equal parts at either the naivety or the sheer bad faith of this 'Professor': no agreement at all means that the UK would be competing head-to-head and no-holds-barred with Brazil, India, China, Russia and the like. I'll let you imagine what that state of affairs would do for working conditions and living standards in the UK. And none of these countries are in hock up to their eyeballs, like the UK is

 

Remember Chinese steel and Tata the other week? Imagine that situation for every last facet of the British economy.

 

It's a huge worry.

 

It seems that the country is going to be trashed just so they can follow the lead of the politicians who say they know how to control immigration, when the reality is nothing much will change.

 

The worrying thing is, that our politicians such as Boris Johnson, who up until very recently was pro-immigration and pro-EU will jump ship and abandon his principle just in the hope that he can become the PM and ignore the damage that he's doing to the country.