EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[unbeliever]

No, I'm saying that what little economic planning the thinking Brexit side (that economics professor) have put forward, will irremediably result in the exact same situation across all sectors of the UK economy opened to direct and unfettered competition from developing economies.

 

Our minimum wage does not compete with some of the least developed EU member states: there is no minimum wage in the BRICs.

 

You can bask in your reclaimed sovereignty when you have to send your kids back down the coal pits again

 

For the rest, assume whatever you want

 

 

So now you're asserting that the UK standard of living will promptly fall to that of China post-Brexit.

That's of course after WWIII ?

 

You're falling into the Cameron trap. Did the cheque from project fear just arrive or something?

We had massively higher wages than China in the UK before we joined the EEC. If you go round telling UK people that they're going to end up on Chinese pay post-Brexit, they'll just laugh at you.

[blackydog]

You're confusing Greece joining the Eurozone with Greece joining the EU.

 

Yes correct I was referring to monetary union (but you knew that all along didn't you?), the example I was using was Greece joining the single currency, and retrospectively it's qualification was seen to have been manipulated. The example pointing out that things can be made to happen, as in the prospect of Turkey joining the union, which i find worrying. Not that I have anything against the Turkish people en masse, just that i don't think a large migration of them to the UK would be a good idea.

And let me qualify that, house prices are unaffordable to many, as are rents in many areas, where would a large influx of people live? There must be thousands of migrants - official and otherwise - living in unsatisfactory and even dangerous conditions already.

And yes I accept Turkey will not join the union in the next few years, but it is a timebomb ticking away for the future.

[unbeliever]

It's a huge worry.

 

It seems that the country is going to be trashed just so they can follow the lead of the politicians who say they know how to control immigration, when the reality is nothing much will change.

 

The worrying thing is, that our politicians such as Boris Johnson, who up until very recently was pro-immigration and pro-EU will jump ship and abandon his principle just in the hope that he can become the PM and ignore the damage that he's doing to the country.

 

Like Corbyn jumping the other way I suppose.

 

"Trashed". Really. Even the "experts" the Remainers like to cite are not predicting anything like this.

 

If you and L00b remain at least plausible in your predictions, you'll have a much better chance of winning over the undecideds.

[High Greener]

This guy nail the issue, if he represented me, I'd still be voting labour

 

[JFKvsNixon]

Like Corbyn jumping the other way I suppose.

 

"Trashed". Really. Even the "experts" the Remainers like to cite are not predicting anything like this.

 

If you and L00b remain at least plausible in your predictions, you'll have a much better chance of winning over the undecideds.

 

I think Corbyn is also a big concern for this country as being the leader of the opposition. The worry being that the upcoming civil war in the Tory party may let him in as PM, something I find as worrying as a Brexit.

 

I wouldn't patronise people by believing that I could change anybody's mind. I'm here expressing my own views.

[L00b]

So now you're asserting that the UK standard of living will promptly fall to that of China post-Brexit.

I did not say 'promptly'.

 

It's simply inevitable, if the UK does not promulgate some form of delaying/protectionist measures to preserve its headstart and competitive advantage. That means concluding some form of trade agreement. No trade agreement = they're free to dump whatever goods/services on the UK for however long to smother the domestic service/industrial base.

 

Just like China did with European steel the other month, eventually resulting in Tata washing its hands off its British plants. And, lest you forget, in relation to which the British government vetoed the EU when the EU tried to do something about it.

You're falling into the Cameron trap.

I'm not falling into anyone's trap: I don't buy Remain's fearmongering any more than I buy Brexit's fearmongering.

 

I form my own opinion from facts, my experience of 30 years of private sector employment in several EU member states, over half of it in a senior and very internationalised role interacting at boardroom level (which goes a long way to explain the heavy cynicism), and a personal interest in international politics and economics for just as long.

We had massively higher wages than China in the UK before we joined the EEC.

Have you looked at how China has progressed since that time, perchance?

 

They're the second largest economy globally, poised to overtake the US in the next 2 to 3 years.

If you go round telling UK people that they're going to end up on Chinese pay post-Brexit, they'll just laugh at you.

Let them.

 

Me telling you/people now, might prompt at least some of them to ask themselves questions, to open their mind more, to think about the outcomes more carefully: that's job done so far as I'm concerned. I'm not here to change people's minds, I'm here to force thinking/doubts/introspection/reflection.

 

Accessorily it also entitles me to point and laugh at you/them in the future, when you complain about how rough a deal you got yourselves in And yes, I can be that shallow

Edited June 7, 2016 by L00b

[unbeliever]

I did not say 'promptly'.

 

It's simply inevitable, if the UK does not promulgate some form of delaying/protectionist measures to preserve its headstart and competitive advantage. That means concluding some form of trade agreement. No trade agreement = they're free to dump whatever goods/services on the UK for however long to smother the domestic service/industrial base.

 

Just like China did with European steel the other month, eventually resulting in Tata washing its hands off its British plants. And, lest you forget, in relation to which the British government vetoed the EU when the EU tried to do something about it.

Have you looked at how China has progressed since that time, perchance?

 

They're the second largest economy globally, poised to overtake the US in the next 2 to 3 years.

Let them.

 

Me telling you/people now, might prompt at least some of them to ask themselves questions, to open their mind more, to think about the outcomes more carefully: that's job done so far as I'm concerned. I'm not here to change people's minds, I'm here to force thinking/doubts/introspection/reflection.

 

Accessorily it also entitles me to point and laugh at you/them in the future, when you complain about how rough a deal you got yourselves in And yes, I can be that shallow

 

I don't mind if China catches up. It will be a very good thing.

There's a world of difference between them coming up to our level and us dropping down ton theirs.

 

There's nothing to stop the UK state intervening to counter interventions by the Chinese government. Except EU law of course. It would be better if neither government fouled the market, but still.

[L00b]

There's a world of difference between them coming up to our level and us dropping down ton theirs.

You're a scientist, right?

 

So you know about the principle of communicating vessels?

 

I'll say no more.

There's nothing to stop the UK state intervening to counter interventions by the Chinese government. Except EU law of course. It would be better if neither government fouled the market, but still.

So why didn't the UK state intervene about the Chinese steel dumping earlier this year?

 

So why did the UK state stop the EU from "intervening to counter interventions by the Chinese government" like the UK state could according to you?

 

So how can the UK state stop the Chinese government fouling the steel (and any other) market to get China Plc ahead of the game?

 

Do you think the Chinese are playing fair and not for keeps?

 

You are aware of course, that China has been waging the world's most extensive cyber warfare effort for years and, not content with bringing itself up to current technological speed through years of contract manufacturing to the extent of now rivalling the US and Europe in chip design, telecoms, biotech and more, it is now engaging in pilfering ongoing R&D and intellectual property through that cyber warfare from the US and Europe hand over fist?

 

Must be nice living in your black and white world

[Tomjames]

Good point, by leaving the EU we'd lose the right to veto Turkey's entry to the EU.

 

Cameron is on record saying he will pave the way from Ankara to Brussels.

[JFKvsNixon]

Cameron is on record saying he will pave the way from Ankara to Brussels.

 

Just like Boris is on record as supporting the EU and saying that restricting immigration would harm the economy?

 

Circumstances change, the Turkey that existed when the PM made his comment is very different from the Turkey that exists now. Also, Cameron won't be PM beyond this parliament so what he believes on this matter is neither here nor there.