Tomjames Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Just like Boris is on record as supporting the EU and saying that restricting immigration would harm the economy? Circumstances change, the Turkey that existed when the PM made his comment is very different from the Turkey that exists now. Also, Cameron won't be PM beyond this parliament so what he believes on this matter is neither here nor there. I'm just pointing out you cannot trust anything Cameron says. I don't pay heed to anything he says now as he will switch when it suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 You're a scientist, right? So you know about the principle of communicating vessels? I'll say no more. Sure. How is it relevant? The world economy grows. China can grow faster than the west and catch up. We don't have to contract so that they can grow. But then I'm pretty sure you already knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MobileB Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I'm content to await the outcome of negotiations after a Brexit if it happens, then to rub your nose in it. Hard No, I'm saying that what little economic planning the thinking Brexit side (that economics professor) have put forward, will irremediably result in the exact same situation across all sectors of the UK economy opened to direct and unfettered competition from developing economies. Our minimum wage does not compete with some of the least developed EU member states: there is no minimum wage in the BRICs, and by now they're just as developed as the UK, particularly in the knowledge sectors - and with a better infrastructure and work ethic (culture) than the EU member states with a lower minimum wage. You can bask in your reclaimed sovereignty when you have to send your kids back down the coal pits again Will it mean we can also send them up chimneys again as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) Sure. How is it relevant? If a side goes up, the other side goes down, and reciprocally. Even when you add more to the vessels. The world economy grows. China can grow faster than the west and catch up. We don't have to contract so that they can grow. But then I'm pretty sure you already knew that. China is already caught up, it is the world's second economy, soon to be first unless Trump/Clinton pulls a big hare out of the hat (but I'm banking on the US going full 30s-like isolationism in the coming years). It is getting ahead of the IBMs, Astra-Zenecas and Qualcomms of this world (in many sectors already and comfortably so) through means fair and foul. And doesn't do that much importing at all. Show me a well known brand car, phone or computer and I'll show you the Chinese copy for the domestic market. It doesn't need us at all, the bootstrapping is all done. But then I'm pretty sure you already knew that How can the UK not contract, when the Chinese production costs are still a mere fraction of the UK's and it is still pulling ahead like a freight train, and they could have unfettered access to the UK market (-according to Brexiters) at prices landed which UK suppliers couldn't hope to match - just like British steel suppliers? Where's the incentive and, importantly and longer-term, money, to buy British going to come from? What's going to be the added value of a UK product or service relative to an identical Chinese product or service at 10% of the UK price? Will it mean we can also send them up chimneys again as well? Well yeah, since the UK will scrapping the Environmental Directives and Russia will pull a Ukraine on its gas supply to the isolated UK Edited June 7, 2016 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 China is already caught up, it is the world's second economy, soon to be first unless Trump/Clinton pulls a big hare out of the hat (but I'm banking on the US going full 30s-like isolationism in the coming years). It is getting ahead of the IBMs, Astra-Zenecas and Qualcomms of this world (in many sectors already and comfortably so) through means fair and foul. But then I'm pretty sure you already knew that How can the UK not contract, when the Chinese production costs are still a mere fraction of the UK's and it is still pulling ahead like a freight train, and they could have unfettered access to the UK market (-according to Brexiters) at prices landed which UK suppliers couldn't hope to match? Where's the incentive and, importantly and longer-term, money, to buy British going to come from? In China GDP/capita is $6800, in the UK it's $41800. That's a factor of >6. The USA is at $53000 and the eurozone is at ~$33000. So in what way are they "caught up"? They may become the biggest economy, but that's more down to the fact that they're the most populous country. This process has been going on for centuries. They're poorer because they're behind on the curve. So maybe they move up the curve faster. Good luck to them. Doesn't mean we're not still moving up. Unless you think that technological advancement is going to cease any time soon? What do you think is different now to 10, 20 or 50 years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 What do you think is different now to 10, 20 or 50 years ago? China is more "open" and "capitalist" in it's out look than it used to be? I'm not sure it was competing with the west 20 or 50 years ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 In China GDP/capita is $6800, in the UK it's $41800. That's a factor of >6. The USA is at $53000 and the eurozone is at ~$33000. So in what way are they "caught up"? This process has been going on for centuries. They're poorer because they're behind on the curve. So maybe they move up the curve faster. Read the edited version. They don't need the West as markets to the extent that they did 10 or even 5 years ago. Their national economy is now sufficiently developed for self-sustained growth. Since you were concerned about British working poors yesterday, I would suggest -respectfully- that you take a passing look at social inequality in China, then put it in the context of their population numbers. Your GDP per head statistic might then be appreciated with a bit more circumspection, when contrasted by the respective population numbers of the UK, the Us and the €zone Doesn't mean we're not still moving up. Unless you think that technological advancement is going to cease any time soon? Never would. I just know that they're now getting ahead of the Western technological advancement curve. I would even if only anecdotally, since technological advancement is my daily bread, and I've seen how Chinese patent application filing stats have evolved over the past few years. What do you think is different now to 10, 20 or 50 years ago?They're a benevolent dictatorship firing on all capitalist cylinders. They've gone through the exact same socio-economic stages that the US did in the 30s/40s and that Japan did in the 70s/80s, in a matter of years. The 1st world sleepwalked into it all for short-term profits. As usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzer1 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) I seem to have been labelled as a racist xenophobe, fine not a problem I have been called worse and it worries me not, but just to clarify a few points. I prefer to call myself a nationalist eurosceptic. By nationalist I support the well being of every Brit be they white Brit, Asian Brit or black Brit of whatever faith, gender or sexual persuasion. I do not think that any of these Brits should be supporting, through benefits, the scum of Europe that come here just to rip the arse out if the system. I have some admiration for Putin as he does what he deems best for Russians and their country, they must like him they keep voting him in allegedly. As far as being against abortion, I think there are too many people in this world full stop and steps ought to be taken to limit population which is forecast to hit 10 billion by 2050. Why keep breeding when there is so much suffering in the world now, every couplevshould be limited to one child for the next 25 years. Yes I know all the arguments about looking after the elderly replacing the workforce etc but it will not help when we go to war over such basic things as water, which will become scarcer with climate change. Now as I said I am a nationalist eurosceptic but when Dave went to do his negotiation I was open to,persuasion but he got bugger all as far as I am concerned. Now mama merkel could have won me over with just two points 1. No benefits for 4 years. 2. No entry without a job. But she thought we were taking the ***** and that we would never leave so she offered squat. Now Europe us panicking because the result is going to be close, I still think and hope we will leave, so they are bringing out all the doom and gloom stories. I know you will say it was not down to merkel but who are you kidding she makes all the decisions in the ru as you and I know. I am still voting out but I believe the following 1. Tough on you merkel brought it on yourself. 2. If we are/ will be such a basket case why did Dave rule nothing out and would lead the out campaign. 3. Much as I hope we will leave I think the eu will come at us with a better deal, which I am against but as people keep saying big business carries weight, so there may be another referendum if we vote out. 4. My reasons for voting do not include the economy as a primary concern, I want British MPs making British laws, I want control of immigration and I want the eu to butt out. Every person here will vote for different reasons one way or the other but I have still yet to meet a remainers in the flesh so think we have a good shot at leaving. I respect each and every one of your opinions, even yours maquis, for voting as you see fit. That is your democratic right which is why am am voting out, to preserve your democratic rights. Sorry for the long post :loopy:hihi: Edited June 7, 2016 by panzer1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MobileB Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I seem to have been labelled as a racist xenophobe, fine not a problem I have been called worse and it worries me not, but just to clarify a few points. I prefer to call myself a nationalist eurosceptic. By nationalist I support the well being of every Brit be they white Brit, Asian Brit or black Brit of whatever faith, gender or sexual persuasion. I do not think that any of these Brits should be supporting, through benefits, the scum of Europe that come here just to rip the arse out if the system. I have some admiration for Putin as he does what he deems best for Russians and their country, they must like him they keep voting him in allegedly. So they should be supporting the British "benefit scum" instead? I think you really need to take a look at this. Take the quiz - be totally honest with yourself - and see what your result is. http://lovehasnolabels.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I seem to have been labelled as a racist xenophobe, fine not a problem I have been called worse and it worries me not, but just to clarify a few points. I prefer to call myself a nationalist eurosceptic. By nationalist I support the well being of every Brit be they white Brit, Asian Brit or black Brit of whatever faith, gender or sexual persuasion. I do not think that any of these Brits should be supporting, through benefits, the scum of Europe that come here just to rip the arse out if the system. I have some admiration for Putin as he does what he deems best for Russians and their country, they must like him they keep voting him in allegedly. As far as being against abortion, I think there are too many people in this world full stop and steps ought to be taken to limit population which is forecast to hit 10 billion by 2050. Why keep breeding when there is so much suffering in the world now, every couplevshould be limited to one child for the next 25 years. Yes I know all the arguments about looking after the elderly replacing the workforce etc but it will not help when we go to war over such basic things as water, which will become scarcer with climate change. Now as I said I am a nationalist eurosceptic but when Dave went to do his negotiation I was open to,persuasion but he got bugger all as far as I am concerned. Now mama merkel could have won me over with just two points 1. No benefits for 4 years. 2. No entry without a job. But she thought we were taking the ***** and that we would never leave so she offered squat. Now Europe us panicking because the result is going to be close, I still think and hope we will leave, so they are bringing out all the doom and gloom stories. I know you will say it was not down to merkel but who are you kidding she makes all the decisions in the ru as you and I know. I am still voting out but I believe the following 1. Tough on you merkel brought it on yourself. 2. If we are/ will be such a basket case why did Dave rule nothing out and would lead the out campaign. 3. Much as I hope we will leave I think the eu will come at us with a better deal, which I am against but as people keep saying big business carries weight, so there may be another referendum if we vote out. 4. My reasons for voting do not include the economy as a primary concern, I want British MPs making British laws, I want control of immigration and I want the eu to butt out. Every person here will vote for different reasons one way or the other but I have still yet to meet a remainers in the flesh so think we have a good shot at leaving. I respect each and every one of your opinions, even yours maquis, for voting as you see fit. That is your democratic right which is why am am voting out, to preserve your democratic rights. Sorry for the long post :loopy:hihi: I don't think you are a racist. Not at all. Your fears are very real & represent a large cross section of uk thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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