EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[unbeliever]

What have the EU done wrong?..........why wouldn't a sovereign state be allowed to conduct its own affairs without threat of military action?...........what exactly is Russias problem with the EU and Ukraine?.........according to Russia and Putin,they can now invade any country in order to protect Russians living under any threat in that country,that Putin percieves to be a threat,in order to eliminate the threat......is the rest of the world and Europe supposed to not react to that?.Ukraine is divided because Russia and its proxies divided it,none of which would have happened if Putin had not intervened.

 

 

I'm going to run with this Taiwan analogy for a minute.

 

If the US/UK went over to Taiwan and started making overtures etc to bring Taiwan into a western alliance, what do you think would happen?

This is something Taiwan would very much like, but don't act on because they're not stupid.

I think that the Chinese army would be in the capital before you could blink and a c#%p load of people would be dead.

Under those circumstances wouldn't it be legitimate to ask the US/UK what the hell they thought they were playing at?

[chalga]

I'm going to run with this Taiwan analogy for a minute.

 

If the US/UK went over to Taiwan and started making overtures etc to bring Taiwan into a western alliance, what do you think would happen?

This is something Taiwan would very much like, but don't act on because they're not stupid.

I think that the Chinese army would be in the capital before you could blink and a c#%p load of people would be dead.

Under those circumstances wouldn't it be legitimate to ask the US/UK what the hell they thought they were playing at?

 

Moving the goalposts doesn't work,sorry..........we are talking about Ukraine and the invasion of that country by Russia,nothing to do with America,China or Taiwan.

 

---------- Post added 17-06-2015 at 17:20 ----------

 

I think you'll find the EU had everything planned before Putin stepped in,

http://www.eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/csp/02_06_en.pdf

 

That's because Ukraine wanted that to happen,nobody asked Putin to invade.

[Havanaclub]

One point - it was started by the EU.

 

The EU works closely with Nato and they wanted to expand into Ukraine, by bringing it into a trading partnership and eventually as a member of the EU. Also it was san opportunity to provoke Russia so they could impose sanctions and then ruin its economy.

 

another NATO expansionist conspiracy theorist that watches Russia Today and thinks it's news. The NATO force size has shrunk, almost all members have drastically reduced defence spending and standing armies are tiny compared to 25 years ago.

 

 

 

 

Ireland, Switzerland, Sweden all have NATO and the EU on their borders. Why aren't they feeling threatened?

 

Russia is a NATO "partner for peace" so tell me why they feel threatened by this shrinking NATO force which is tiny compared to what it was in the late 1980's. State duma in Russia passed laws to allow 20% GDP on defence. I say "defence" but I can't remember that last time Russia was attacked.

 

As for membership to NATO, those countries that really wanted to join are the counties that know Russia better than most. The difference between NATO enlargement over Russian expansion is NATO gives you a choice to join.

 

Lets look at wars in Europe since the end of the USSR.

 

1991 Ten-Day War

1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance (pro-Russian military support)

1991–1993 Georgian Civil War (pro-Russian military action)

1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence (pro-Russian military action)

1992 War of Transnistria (Russian and pro-Russian military action and unofficial annexation)

1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict (Russian military action)

1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance (Russian military action)

1992–1995 Bosnian War (pro-Russian forces involved in ethnic cleansing)

1993 Cherbourg incident

1993 Russian constitutional crisis (Russian internal standoff)

1994–1996 First Chechen War (evidence ethnic cleansing by Russians / Russian military action)

1997 Unrest in Albania

1998–1999 Kosovo War (Russian involvement)

1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign

1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance (Russian military action)

1999 Dagestan War (Russian military action)

1999–2009 Second Chechen War (evidence ethnic cleansing by Russians / Russian military action)

1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley

2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia

2002 Perejil Island crisis

2004 Unrest in Kosovo

2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis (Russian involvement)

2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis (Russian involvement)

2007–present Civil war in Ingushetia (Russian involvement)

2008 Unrest in Kosovo

2008 Russia–Georgia war (Russian military action / occupation and annexation)

2009–present Insurgency in the North Caucasus (Russian military action)

2011–present North Kosovo crisis

2013-present Euromaidan (Russian involvement)

2014-Crimean crisis (Russian occupation and annexation)

2014- Donbas and Luhansk occupation. (Russian involvement)

 

The truth is Russia does not want other countries to join NATO, because it reduces the number of countries it can invade with impunity

 

 

Expansion!

Edited June 17, 2015 by Havanaclub

[unbeliever]

Moving the goalposts doesn't work,sorry..........we are talking about Ukraine and the invasion of that country by Russia,nothing to do with America,China or Taiwan.

 

 

I'm not moving anything. It's an analogy.

 

The situations are all but identical. The EU know the'd get a nasty reaction from Russia. I suppose it was technically righteous, but it was incredibly stupid.

 

---------- Post added 17-06-2015 at 18:26 ----------

 

another NATO expansionist conspiracy theorist that watches Russia Today and thinks it's news. The NATO force size has shrunk, almost all members have drastically reduced defence spending and standing armies are tiny compared to 25 years ago.

 

 

 

 

Ireland, Switzerland, Sweden all have NATO and the EU on their borders. Why aren't they feeling threatened?

 

Russia is a NATO "partner for peace" so tell me why they feel threatened by this shrinking NATO force which is tiny compared to what it was in the late 1980's. State duma in Russia passed laws to allow 20% GDP on defence. I say "defence" but I can't remember that last time Russia was attacked.

 

As for membership to NATO, those countries that really wanted to join are the counties that know Russia better than most. The difference between NATO enlargement over Russian expansion is NATO gives you a choice to join.

 

Lets look at wars in Europe since the end of the USSR.

 

1991 Ten-Day War

1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance (pro-Russian military support)

1991–1993 Georgian Civil War (pro-Russian military action)

1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence (pro-Russian military action)

1992 War of Transnistria (Russian and pro-Russian military action and unofficial annexation)

1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict (Russian military action)

1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance (Russian military action)

1992–1995 Bosnian War (pro-Russian forces involved in ethnic cleansing)

1993 Cherbourg incident

1993 Russian constitutional crisis (Russian internal standoff)

1994–1996 First Chechen War (evidence ethnic cleansing by Russians / Russian military action)

1997 Unrest in Albania

1998–1999 Kosovo War (Russian involvement)

1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign

1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance (Russian military action)

1999 Dagestan War (Russian military action)

1999–2009 Second Chechen War (evidence ethnic cleansing by Russians / Russian military action)

1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley

2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia

2002 Perejil Island crisis

2004 Unrest in Kosovo

2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis (Russian involvement)

2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis (Russian involvement)

2007–present Civil war in Ingushetia (Russian involvement)

2008 Unrest in Kosovo

2008 Russia–Georgia war (Russian military action / occupation and annexation)

2009–present Insurgency in the North Caucasus (Russian military action)

2011–present North Kosovo crisis

2013-present Euromaidan (Russian involvement)

2014-Crimean crisis (Russian occupation and annexation)

2014- Donbas and Luhansk occupation. (Russian involvement)

 

The truth is Russia does not want NATO other countries to join, because it reduces the number of countries it can invade with impunity

 

 

Expansion!

 

 

Yes. You're right. The Russian state is a massive international a#£ehole.

That doesn't negate the fact that the EU knew that their actions were likely to provoke military action from Russia, but they did it anyway.

They knowing took action that would lead to war.

But it's okay, you see because technically the Russians are the only ones to have committed a crime.

[JFKvsNixon]

I'm going to run with this Taiwan analogy for a minute.

 

If the US/UK went over to Taiwan and started making overtures etc to bring Taiwan into a western alliance, what do you think would happen?

This is something Taiwan would very much like, but don't act on because they're not stupid.

I think that the Chinese army would be in the capital before you could blink and a c#%p load of people would be dead.

Under those circumstances wouldn't it be legitimate to ask the US/UK what the hell they thought they were playing at?

 

Isn't the ROC very much part of a western alliance? After all it was a crucial part of the Cold War, with several American military bases. There are close economic its between America and the ROC and significant arms sales.

[unbeliever]

Isn't the ROC very much part of a western alliance? After all it was a crucial part of the Cold War, with several American military bases. There are close economic its between America and the ROC and significant arms sales.

 

There are some ties with Taiwan yes.

But there are limits. The US treads very carefully to make sure that they don't provoke military action from the PROC.

Morally, the ROC citizens really ought to be allowed to have full free elections, display whatever flags they want and generally run their internal affairs as they see fit. But they restrain themselves because they don't want to be invaded by the nearest a#£hole.

If the ROC wanted to fully assert its independence they know that it would cost them dearly in blood with little chance of success. Their good friends throughout the west understand this and act accordingly.

[JFKvsNixon]

There are some ties with Taiwan yes.

But there are limits. The US treads very carefully to make sure that they don't provoke military action from the PROC.

Morally, the ROC citizens really ought to be allowed to have full free elections, display whatever flags they want and generally run their internal affairs as they see fit. But they restrain themselves because they don't want to be invaded by the nearest a#£hole.

If the ROC wanted to fully assert its independence they know that it would cost them dearly in blood with little chance of success. Their good friends throughout the west understand this and act accordingly.

 

I think that historically the only thing that stopped the PRC invading the ROC was the ROC's alliance with the USA.

[unbeliever]

I think that historically the only thing that stopped the PRC invading the ROC was the ROC's alliance with the USA.

 

That's certainly true. It's a delicate balance.

Too little western help and China sees a push-over. Too much and China gets angry.

 

This delicate balance is what the EU ignored in their dealings with the Ukraine.

Edited June 17, 2015 by unbeliever

[chalga]

I'm not moving anything. It's an analogy.

 

The situations are all but identical. The EU know the'd get a nasty reaction from Russia. I suppose it was technically righteous, but it was incredibly stupid.

 

---------- Post added 17-06-2015 at 18:26 ----------

 

 

 

Yes. You're right. The Russian state is a massive international a#£ehole.

That doesn't negate the fact that the EU knew that their actions were likely to provoke military action from Russia, but they did it anyway.

They knowing took action that would lead to war.

But it's okay, you see because technically the Russians are the only ones to have committed a crime.

 

 

The EU have not done anything,you still don't get it do you,..........Putin can't stop Ukraine becoming a member of the EU in normal circumstances,but he doesn't mind people losing their lives over inventing a pretext that Russians were in danger in a foreign country and needed rescuing.....all because a foreign country did something that they are perfectly entitled to do,and their people have a perfect right to express a wish to do it.........but Putin doesn't agree,so he wants to make everything as bad as possible as punishment........what kind of a leader is that?...........the Berlin wall came down,nobody has expressed a desire to see it go back up again........Russia is on the wrong side of the argument,and people have died because of him,not because of the EU.

[Havanaclub]

 

Yes. You're right. The Russian state is a massive international a#£ehole.

That doesn't negate the fact that the EU knew that their actions were likely to provoke military action from Russia, but they did it anyway.

They knowing took action that would lead to war.

But it's okay, you see because technically the Russians are the only ones to have committed a crime.

 

 

Their actions? Please outline these actions.

 

For the second time. Ukraine elected Yanukovych on his pledge to sign the EU trade deal. At the same time he was voted in as president, Putin invented the Eurasian Customs Union (2010) . and in Nov 13 he made Yanukovych choose that over the EU deal.

 

The people of Ukraine (the vast majority) wanted the EU deal that was already promised. Yanukovych's party is sponsored by the Kremlin.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Havanaclub