JFKvsNixon Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That's certainly true. It's a delicate balance. Too little western help and China sees a push-over. Too much and China gets angry. This delicate balance is what the EU ignored in their dealings with the Ukraine. No, I think it went the other way. Putin acted the way he did because he got away with doing something similar with Georgia. In the past the West has been too forgiving towards Putin, it was important to give him the message that there are limits to his behaviour. This is pushing the Ukrainian people's wishes for closer ties with the West to one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 No, I think it went the other way. Putin acted the way he did because he got away with doing something similar with Georgia. In the past the West has been too forgiving towards Putin, it was important to give him the message that there are limits to his behaviour. This is pushing the Ukrainian people's wishes for closer ties with the West to one side. That was because the West saw him as an arch capitalist, one of their club, a person they could swan about with on massive yachts etc rather than the grasping, corrupt megalomaniac that he really is. They were glad he'd joined their little club and turned a blind eye to how he got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That was because the West saw him as an arch capitalist, one of their club, a person they could swan about with on massive yachts etc rather than the grasping, corrupt megalomaniac that he really is. They were glad he'd joined their little club and turned a blind eye to how he got there. I think that the West also needed Russia onside with their war on terror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 No, I think it went the other way. Putin acted the way he did because he got away with doing something similar with Georgia. In the past the West has been too forgiving towards Putin, it was important to give him the message that there are limits to his behaviour. This is pushing the Ukrainian people's wishes for closer ties with the West to one side. That's an interesting analysis. You may well have a good point. Surely though if we're to take a tougher approach to Russian we have to show willingness to use force. It's no good provoking Russia into invading Ukraine and then doing nothing about it when he does. A significant western military presence in the Ukraine would surely have deterred Russia. This has worked in Taiwan before on China. On that basis, what the EU did was try to bluff with its cards facing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalga Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That's an interesting analysis. You may well have a good point. Surely though if we're to take a tougher approach to Russian we have to show willingness to use force. It's no good provoking Russia into invading Ukraine and then doing nothing about it when he does. A significant western military presence in the Ukraine would surely have deterred Russia. This has worked in Taiwan before on China. On that basis, what the EU did was try to bluff with its cards facing up. The EU didn't provoke anything,Putin did it all on his own........the Ukrainian people asked for more EU and less Putin.........are you going to say that they 'provoked' Putin too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The EU didn't provoke anything,Putin did it all on his own........the Ukrainian people asked for more EU and less Putin.........are you going to say that they 'provoked' Putin too? Yes. But they're not professional diplomats. They ask for what they want and expect professional politicians and diplomats to work out the details. The EU should have known better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalga Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yes. But they're not professional diplomats. They ask for what they want and expect professional politicians and diplomats to work out the details. The EU should have known better. No,they just don't expect to be invaded for expressing free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) No,they just don't expect to be invaded for expressing free will. Yes but the EU should have known that they would be and adjusted their tactics accordingly. Plenty of people told them. Now, on top of everything else, we've got a breakdown in relations with Russia which is extremely dangerous for everybody. The EU was supposed to be keeping the peace in Europe. Keeping the peace is not just a matter of not committing crimes. That's one of the reasons we're told we should keep putting up with them. Nice job guys. Edited June 17, 2015 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalga Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Yes but the EU should have known that they would be and adjusted their tactics accordingly. Plenty of people told them. Now, on top of everything else, we've got a breakdown in relations with Russia which is extremely dangerous for everybody. The EU was supposed to be keeping the space in Europe. Keeping the peace is not just a matter of not committing crimes. That's one of the reasons we're told we should keep putting up with them. Nice job guys. The EU did not commit any crime,they wanted every negotiation with Ukraine to be done by the book,which they were in the process of doing.Putin wanted it to be done by the gun,he is the one responsible for not keeping the peace,not the EU.........the EU tactics were legal and by the book.........Putins were illegal and cost lives..........the EU is not solely responsible for keeping the peace in Europe.........Putin wanted to pick guns up and negotiate with them.......the blame is all with Putin,not the EU. Edited June 17, 2015 by chalga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That's an interesting analysis. You may well have a good point. Surely though if we're to take a tougher approach to Russian we have to show willingness to use force. It's no good provoking Russia into invading Ukraine and then doing nothing about it when he does. A significant western military presence in the Ukraine would surely have deterred Russia. This has worked in Taiwan before on China. On that basis, what the EU did was try to bluff with its cards facing up. It would have been politically impossible for boots to go on the ground in the Ukraine before Russia intervened. From within the Ukraine and from the countries sending the troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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