I1L2T3 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 The 'Brexit camp' is not a political party and will be in no position to pour any money into anything. Do I think £350 million extra will be poured into the NHS by the government of the day if we leave... prob not. I also don't think it will result in WWIII, or more immigration or each family being £4k worse off. The whole debate is littered with BS claims by both side and you should ignore them all and instead vote on the key principle... do we want a democratic and sovereign Britain or do we want to subjugate to EU rule. If people genuinely want to be part of some sort of Federal States of Europe then I respect their decision to vote to stay. What I don't respect are those calling on people to sell out their principle because the price is right. Previous generations have paid a far greater price for democracy and sovereignty than we could possible pay by leaving the EU. In my opinion the whole focus on money is frankly shameful. Let's be honest. The core of the leave argument is anti-immigration with a mock concern about sovereignty as a wrapper. The economic argument is lost but the state of the economy is what is driving discontent, and immigration is a lightning rod for that discontent. You have to be aware that people who don't have our economic best interests at heart (if they did they'd be telling us about how great the post-Brexit economy will be) are using the immigration/sovereignty combo to drive up votes. The state of the economy makes people particularly vulnerable to searching for outlets to vent their frustration, and in the EU referendum a significant number of people have found that outlet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Society was a lot different then. Expectations of the NHS was a lot lower, society was younger, healthcare was more basic and cheaper, our lifestyles was more healthier. True. But who ever is in charge, I can't see the NHS being dismantled in 4 years. ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 13:15 ---------- Let's be honest. The core of the leave argument is anti-immigration with a mock concern about sovereignty as a wrapper. The economic argument is lost but the state of the economy is what is driving discontent, and immigration is a lightning rod got that discontent. You have to be aware that people who don't have our economic best interests at heart (if they did they'd be telling us about how great the post-Brexit economy will be) are using the immigration/sovereignty combo to drive up votes. The state of the economy makes people particularly vulnerable to searching for outlets to vent their frustration, and in the EU referendum a significant number of people have found that outlet That's either a lie or a very badly informed opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Let's be honest. The core of the leave argument is anti-immigration with a mock concern about sovereignty as a wrapper. Actually is everything but immigration, its just very high levels of immigration are the cause of many of the problems people care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) If we take 5 years to get back on track, do we even have an NHS? Undoubtedly. The more accurate question is perhaps 'how much of one relative to now'. It's too much of an institution to be done away with. For British politicians/MPs it'd be way much more of a political suicide to do away with the NHS, than to sign back up to the freedom of movement of EU people. But it's also enormous with a voracious appetite for tax money which, if tax money falls off a cliff again like it did in 2008, could be denied to it by whoever's in No.11 post-Brexit and tries to balance the books. You could well see the cuts ring-fencing lifted. Don't forget who'd be at the helm in No.10/No.11 post-Brexit either, i.e. the Eurosceptic side of the Tories (which, I daresay, is still more hardline baby-eating capitalist than the Europhile side). Note that I'm not saying that would happen, I'm just saying that, with No.11 wedged between the devil and the deep blue sea by a downturn, it's a logical -and therefore real- possibility. Speaking of downturns, I found a useful 'reference' resource with an interesting graph comparing the conclusions of the main economical studies about the overall economical impact of Brexit on UK GDP, in a recent Le Monde article. The graph compares the GDP gains (green) and losses (red) forecast by each of the main think tanks, the Treasury, OECD, etc. across the full spectrum of pro-Brexit to pro-Remain and independents. Interestingly, the article reminds us that Open Europe (Eurosceptic) was predicting a 1,6 % GDP gain back in 2015, but has since revised that to a 0,5 % to 1,5 % GDP loss in April 2016. Links to each economical study (all in English) are at he bottom of the article, grey box. Edited June 9, 2016 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Actually is everything but immigration, its just very high levels of immigration are the cause of many of the problems people care about. So it's immigration then, whether it's cause or effect. Or perhaps imagined threat? ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 13:26 ---------- True. But who ever is in charge, I can't see the NHS being dismantled in 4 years. ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 13:15 ---------- That's either a lie or a very badly informed opinion. Explain what you don't like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) Actually is everything but immigration, its just very high levels of immigration are the cause of many of the problems people care about. Not me. . ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 13:30 ---------- Explain what you don't like The sovereignty argument is the whole crux of the matter. Your amateur psychoanalysis of the motivation of the Brexiters is nonsense. The Remainers keep banging on about hypothetical economic effects because they either don't believe in, or don't think they can win on, the principled case to be part of the EU. That principled case does exist, but is getting very little discussion. Perhaps we could correct that to an extent on this forum. Edited June 9, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 So it's immigration then, whether it's cause or effect. Or perhaps imagined threat? ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 13:26 ---------- Explain what you don't like No its not immigration, its housing, public services, low wages, lack of job, immigration isn't the issue, but too much immigration is the cause of problems that people care about. The things people care about can't be fixed unless immigration is brought under control. ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 13:31 ---------- Not me. Not me what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Not me what? I make no claim that immigration is the sole or dominant cause of the problems you describe, nor do I support such claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I make no claim that immigration is the sole or dominant cause of the problems you describe, nor do I support such claims. I didn't claim that did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I didn't claim that did. Did too. . Actually is everything but immigration, its just very high levels of immigration are the cause of many of the problems people care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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