unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 The sovereignty argument is fake. Every time it is trotted out its the same dog whistle lies around losing sovereignty, and being subjugated to an EU superstate. It's nonsense. Neither of those things have ever happened and won't ever happen because the EU doesn't work that way and won't ever work that way, at least where the UK is concerned. This is blatantly not true. Anybody reading only has to look at the 40+ years of history of matters where previously authority lay with the UK government and it now lies with the EU. The leave campaign should be honest and make it clear that what they don't like is the concept of pooled sovereignty and shared decision making, and that neither of those things mean loss of sovereignty or submission. They never will though because the dog whistle is easier to use. They've been quite clear that this is what they don't like. You realise that you've stated that our sovereignty has been "pooled" into the EU, but we have not lost it in the same sentence there. Was that a mistake? This nonsense concept of "pooled" sovereignty is not fooling anybody. The economic argument is real and the threat is real. It is the most important thing, only people don't realise it yet. Their heads have been turned by the immigration argument and the very weird sovereignty arguments. Maybe some people have been turned by the immigration argument. That's their right. I do not advocate making this decision based on immigration, but it's their vote and it's not for me to tell them otherwise. History is littered with people who took a principled (sometimes misguided) stand and lost the shirt off their back and the roof over their head. Be clear and honest: the leave campaign is asking tens of millions of people to make that stand (on a dishonest premise) and that the economic consequences are potentially significant. Do you have a principled argument for remain or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Undoubtedly. The more accurate question is perhaps 'how much of one relative to now'. It's too much of an institution to be done away with. For British politicians/MPs it'd be way much more of a political suicide to do away with the NHS, than to sign back up to the freedom of movement of EU people. But it's also enormous with a voracious appetite for tax money which, if tax money falls off a cliff again like it did in 2008, could be denied to it by whoever's in No.11 post-Brexit and tries to balance the books. You could well see the cuts ring-fencing lifted. Don't forget who'd be at the helm in No.10/No.11 post-Brexit either, i.e. the Eurosceptic side of the Tories (which, I daresay, is still more hardline baby-eating capitalist than the Europhile side). Note that I'm not saying that would happen, I'm just saying that, with No.11 wedged between the devil and the deep blue sea by a downturn, it's a logical -and therefore real- possibility. Speaking of downturns, I found a useful 'reference' resource with an interesting graph comparing the conclusions of the main economical studies about the overall economical impact of Brexit on UK GDP, in a recent Le Monde article. The graph compares the GDP gains (green) and losses (red) forecast by each of the main think tanks, the Treasury, OECD, etc. across the full spectrum of pro-Brexit to pro-Remain and independents. Interestingly, the article reminds us that Open Europe (Eurosceptic) was predicting a 1,6 % GDP gain back in 2015, but has since revised that to a 0,5 % to 1,5 % GDP loss in April 2016. Links to each economical study (all in English) are at he bottom of the article, grey box. Chances of Britain going bust following a downturn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Chances of Britain going bust following a downturn? Define "bust"........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Do you have a principled argument for remain or not? The thread is very, very long and this has been answered time and time again. From my point of view, I'd rather be inside the tent ******* out than outside the tent ******* my pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 The thread is very, very long and this has been answered time and time again. From my point of view, I'd rather be inside the tent ******* out than outside the tent ******* my pants. That sounds very much like a pragmatic argument and not a principled one. I've been following this thread since it started, so I must have missed the principled argument. ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 14:18 ---------- Chances of Britain going bust following a downturn? Nobody, even on the remain side, is forecasting a downturn on the scale of Gordon Brown's. So that's not a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Define "bust"........... We are over a trillion in debt. Are we going to be able to service that debt following a restriction in the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 To those who said all we voted for in 74/5 was a common trade area..this is an extract from the government pamphlet issued at the time: The aims of the Common Market are: To bring together the peoples of Europe. To raise living standards and improve working conditions. To promote growth and boost world trade. To help the poorer regions of Europe and the rest of the world. To help maintain peace and freedom Looks like we voted for more than just a big market place.. Here's the link to the pamphlet itself . http://civitas.org.uk/content/files/1975ReferendumGov.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 We are over a trillion in debt. Are we going to be able to service that debt following a restriction in the economy. Our debt to GDP ratio is not great, but not terrible by international standards. The governments of France, the USA, Belgium, Italy, Ireland and Portugal are a lot more indebted. Japan and Greece are in a league of their own. We've got a fair amount of headroom before we're in proper trouble, and UK government borrowing costs are very low (about 1.3% for 10 year gilts). Strangely enough, amid all the talk of Brexit and the polls showing leave doing well, the cost of borrowing for the UK government has been dropping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 To those who said all we voted for in 74/5 was a common trade area..this is an extract from the government pamphlet issued at the time: The aims of the Common Market are: To bring together the peoples of Europe. To raise living standards and improve working conditions. To promote growth and boost world trade. To help the poorer regions of Europe and the rest of the world. To help maintain peace and freedom Looks like we voted for more than just a big market place.. Here's the link to the pamphlet itself . http://civitas.org.uk/content/files/1975ReferendumGov.pdf Has it achieved those aims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) Has it achieved those aims? I would say so on the whole..wouldn't you..? Edited June 9, 2016 by truman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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