Shef1985 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 That sounds very much like a pragmatic argument and not a principled one. I've been following this thread since it started, so I must have missed the principled argument Pragmatic as in dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations? Yes, I'm very much a pragmatist! In terms of principles, the loss of sovereignty argument something I take with a pinch of salt. If loss of sovereignty was any kind of issue at all I think you would find the desire to leave far, far greater than all evidence currently suggests. Most people are not concerned about loss of sovereignty because it is bogus. The laws they know and understand and are affected by are UK laws. The EU laws that deal with trade are laws they are willing to accept so we can be part of a massive trading block. I'll stick to my principles that pragmatism is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I'm not sure how that answers my question..ie do you think the EU has achieved the aims set out in the '74 pamphlet? Yes & no. It appears a lot harder to integrate 28 member states than 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Are you trying to say that people voted for the Europe the way it is now? Why did it change from EEC to EU? What I'm saying is that lots of people say we only voted to be part of a big trading area when the pamphlet shows that it was more than that even in 74.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I'm not sure how that answers my question..ie do you think the EU has achieved the aims set out in the '74 pamphlet? Nope. Europe has shrunk substantially as a share of the world economy. And they've manufactured a mass of problems which were quite unnecessary. Now we have the rise of rather distasteful political elements which we thought we'd seen off decades ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 The only reason we are doing ok now is because we kept out the single currency. ---------- Post added 09-06-2016 at 13:54 ---------- Nope. Europe has shrunk substantially as a share of the world economy. And they've manufactured a mass of problems which were quite unnecessary. Now we have the rise of rather distasteful political elements which we thought we'd seen off decades ago. 17% from over 30% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 The only reason we are doing ok now is because we kept out the single currency. How are Germany doing so well? Their economy is bigger than ours.. any sign of that link that shows we're liable to pay bailouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ez8004 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) JCB Chairman Lord Bamford has dealt a blow to Cameron with his support for Brexit...... Not much of a blow at all from a a company like JCB. Compare them to the UK's leading engineering company Rolls-Royce who employee far more people directly with a supply chain that supports a further 100k workers who supports to remain. It is obvious which opinion carries more weight. Not to mention I trust Warren East over Bamford any day of the week. Edited June 9, 2016 by ez8004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 How are Germany doing so well? Their economy is bigger than ours.. any sign of that link that shows we're liable to pay bailouts? The Euro is optimised for Germany. It's like the whole Eurozone is using the DM. The rest were supposed to converge. Some of them did, some didn't and lied about it. Some that did have since diverged again. It was a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) What I'm saying is that lots of people say we only voted to be part of a big trading area when the pamphlet shows that it was more than that even in 74.. Most of those points in bold you included that are from the pamphlet to me just read like generic positive inevitable results of a prospering free trade area. Though the "bring people of Europe together", though vague, is quite ominous. There is nothing about a single currency, expanding to include yet-to-be-former Soviet block countries and free movement of people etc etc. Edited June 9, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 How are Germany doing so well? Their economy is bigger than ours.. any sign of that link that shows we're liable to pay bailouts? Germany rebuilt their industry around making stuff after the second world war. It's partly why we have a trade deficit with them. Merkel also rules Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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