Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) They've been consistently wrong on the matter of european integration. I'm not asking people to ignore their advice. Just take it with a pinch of salt. That's telling them to ignore the advice. Just because you don't like what they say. Who are 'they' in the above? Because I'm not just talking about economists that think Brexit is a bad idea, it's all the others too. Brexiter-we'll be fine after. Remainer-where is your evidence? Brexit-I have none. It's a gut feeling. Where's yours then?? Remainer-*thwack* read all that. Brexiter-No, it's all wrong. I mean seriously, wtf???? Edited June 13, 2016 by Shef1985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Regarding the two main issues, ie the economy and immigration. I think we will be economically better off if we remain. However, I don't think it would be a financial disaster if we left. Although we COULD reduce immigration if we left, I don't believe we would, or if we did it wouldn't be by much. Firstly, we already allow many non-EU immigrants, and are making no real inroads into reducing these numbers. If we are not interested in addressing it now, why would Brexit change that? Secondly, there is a market demand for people to move. That will not change. Thirdly, and most importantly, the people that come are doing so because they are upwardly mobile and trying to do the best for themselves and their children. As such, they will be the entrepreneurs of tomorrow - quite simply, they will improve our gene pool. Overall, immigration is a good thing, in my opinion. I have voted to remain, primarily because of the effects of European Directives, and what they can and do achieve. The EU is a free trade organisation, and uses directives to help achieve this. Directives set standards to ensure a basic quality, but also to prevent countries from creating false standards based around their own manufacturers. It also prevents countries and manufacturers from taking short cuts which would otherwise put employees and customers at risk. Directives also set standards to protect the environment, eg freshwater fish directive, bathing water directive etc. These prevent countries from damaging their environment by undercutting other countries on price by not caring about their environment - an environment which impacts on its neighbours. A river such as the Danube flows through many countries. A common standard across Europe minimises the opportunities for a single country to take shortcuts locally that would impact on others. A UK outside the EU could be a leader in environmental issues. However, unless it is fully in line with the rest of the EU, it will not work properly. If the UK leads the way, there will be a cost, which would put us at a trade disadvantage with the rest of Europe. If we try to lag behind to increase our profit, we will damage our environment, and induce the EU to put up barriers to prevent us trading. If we finish up having the same standards as the rest of the EU, which we will, then it would be better if we were inside the group actually setting the standards and getting the ones we want. Although Europe, through the EU, can improve its own environment, there is a cost to doing this. As a result, countries with lower standards can undercut us, but do so at the expense of their own environment and people. A large, powerful, EU can use its economic clout as a buyer to put pressure on China, Indonesia, India, Brazil etc to force them towards environmentally more sustainable industries. A lone UK does not have the same clout. We would be worse off and we wouldnt control inward migration. Unfortunately the leave camp had a chance to sell this to the public and they have chosen to base the campaign on falsehoods. So that's that, bring on the 23rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) That's telling them to ignore the advice. Just because you don't like what they say. Who are 'they' in the above? Because I'm not just talking about economists that think Brexit is a bad idea, it's all the others too. Brexiter-we'll be fine after Remainer-where is your evidence? Brexit-I have none. It's a gut feeling. Where's yours then?? Remainer-*thwack* read all that. Brexiter-No, it's all wrong. I mean seriously, wtf???? That's an amusing characterisation. Thing is, on my side I have all the people who've been consistently right about the nature of the european project and the economic impact of the big decisions such as the ERM and the Euro. On your side you have a lot of people with impressive sounding titles who have an equally impressive record of getting these things wrong. I think the key difference is between those who trust modelling and those who trust data (i.e. history). I'm quite comfortable with my reasoning. From this I conclude 3 key things: 1. European integration will continue and we will not be excluded from it if we remain. 2. European integration will continue to wreak havoc with the economies of member nations. 3. There is no great economic or other threat from leaving. Therefore I am not sufficiently scared to withdraw my demand for self-government for the people of the UK. Edited June 13, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 That's telling them to ignore the advice. Just because you don't like what they say. Who are 'they' in the above? Because I'm not just talking about economists that think Brexit is a bad idea, it's all the others too. Brexiter-we'll be fine after Remainer-where is your evidence? Brexit-I have none. It's a gut feeling. Where's yours then?? Remainer-*thwack* read all that. Brexiter-No, it's all wrong. I mean seriously, wtf???? You are right and I have to admit I was initially wrong. All the evidence points to a serious economic downturn post-brexit. I feel brexiters are now choosing to ignore the evidence out of some loyalty to this 'soverignty' idea and Britain to go back to being Britain. Mainly hard right wingers who want to leave at any cost or people who havent done the research. Some of the comments on social media are just plain stupid. One women was saying the EU is sending loads of jobs to eastern europe and that the Norweigen company she works for might cut jobs if we stay in the EU (really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 That's an amusing characterisation. Thing is, on my side I have all the people who've been consistently right about the nature of the european project and the economic impact of the big decisions such as the ERM and the Euro. On your side you have a lot of people with impressive sounding titles who have an equally impressive record of getting these things wrong. I think the key difference is between those who trust modelling and those who trust data (i.e. history). I'm quite comfortable with my reasoning. From this I conclude 3 key things: 1. European integration will continue and we will not be excluded from it if we remain. 2. European integration will continue to wreak havoc with the economies of member nations. 3. There is no great economic or other threat from leaving. Re 1. European integration will continue and we will not be excluded from it if we leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Dump one very, very large set of rules for a few small ones. Hell yes. You're not going to get anywhere telling me that this is a silly idea. Almost everybody (including the EU) makes such deals. Most are not as bad at it as the EU. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 12:03 ---------- You've lost me now. I'll try again. Leaving the EU does not present any serious international trading difficulties. It's a low tariff world and it can be negotiated into a still lower one for us. I'll try again as well, for the last time coz I'm getting bored. The EU is a huge part of how we run the country, trade with others, and how we control immigration. Leaving that will cause massive uncertainty. We will go into recession. I cannot for the life of me work out why people think different - sure it might get better but after how long? Successive governments can't control the non-eu immigration now either. And we're an island! Book mark this post and revisit in 12 month after we leave and we can see where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Re 1. European integration will continue and we will not be excluded from it if we leave. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. How can we, as non-members, be further integrated into the EU? ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 12:25 ---------- I'll try again as well, for the last time coz I'm getting bored. The EU is a huge part of how we run the country, trade with others, and how we control immigration. Leaving that will cause massive uncertainty. We will go into recession. I cannot for the life of me work out why people think different - sure it might get better but after how long? Successive governments can't control the non-eu immigration now either. And we're an island! Book mark this post and revisit in 12 month after we leave and we can see where we are. Will do. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomjames Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 1. European integration will continue and we will not be excluded from it if we remain. 2. European integration will continue to wreak havoc with the economies of member nations. 3. There is no great economic or other threat from leaving. Therefore I am not sufficiently scared to withdraw my demand for self-government for the people of the UK. 90% of economists say there will be an economic downturn. Who should we believe? you with no qualifications? or economists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Dump one very, very large set of rules for a few small ones. Hell yes. Half of our exports go to the EU..I suppose they'll cut their import rules just for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 90% of economists say there will be an economic downturn. Who should we believe? you with no qualifications? or economists? Neither. Believe the people who have been consistently right on these matters since 1970. Judge based on record. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 12:27 ---------- Half of our exports go to the EU..I suppose they'll cut their import rules just for us? They do plenty of trade with non-members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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