unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 speak to you from the grave did he? I have a memory and he wrote stuff down. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 13:14 ---------- Failed politicians, lol, by your own words. I give them all respect. How are they failed? They're quite the reverse on this matter. Everything they've said on the subject for over 40 years proved correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 They've been getting this right for over 40 years. Do you attach no value to that? What exactly have they got right about the consequences of a Brexit? What exactly do you think they got right before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) Not further integrated as such, but subject to the standards and restrictions that the EU decides for itself. If we want to sell to within the EU, then we must accept their directives. We have input into the currect directives. If we leave, then we will no longer have any input. So we either accept the EU's standards, or we follow an isolationist approach. Not so. The 6-7% of UK businesses which trade with the EU would have to comply with EU regulations. The rest would not. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 13:19 ---------- What exactly have they got right about the consequences of a Brexit? What exactly do you think they got right before? 3 key points: The EEC would grow into a supra-national government and insist on ever more control of us. The ERM was a very bad idea which would be very damaging to the UK economy. The Euro was a bad idea in general and especially bad for the UK if we joined. At the same time your experts told us: The EEC would remain a simple tariff free zone with minimal regulation. The ERM would protect the UK and safeguard the economy against inflation and recession, stabilising interest rates. The Euro was a fabulous idea and if we stayed out our economy would take a massive hit. Edited June 13, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Not so. The 6-7% of UK businesses which trade with the EU would have to comply with EU regulations. The rest would not. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 13:19 ---------- 3 key points: The EEC would grow into a supra-national government and insist on ever more control of us. The ERM was a very bad idea which would be very damaging to the UK economy. The Euro was a bad idea in general and especially bad for the UK if we joined. This Euro thing keeps coming up. Has anyone done any simulations that show how Britain would have been effected had we joined the Euro? Germany seems to be doing ok and they're in the Euro. Maybe we would have turned out like Germany! You seem to think the only thing that can bring down Germany is Brexit because we have a trade deficit with them! Very odd..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Not so. The 6-7% of UK businesses which trade with the EU would have to comply with EU regulations. The rest would not. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 13:19 ---------- 3 key points: The EEC would grow into a supra-national government and insist on ever more control of us. The ERM was a very bad idea which would be very damaging to the UK economy. The Euro was a bad idea in general and especially bad for the UK if we joined. At the same time your experts told us: The EEC would remain a simple tariff free zone with minimal regulation. The ERM would protect the UK and safeguard the economy against inflation and recession, stabilising interest rates. The Euro was a fabulous idea and if we stayed out our economy would take a massive hit. It is only those companies who export that provide income for the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) This Euro thing keeps coming up. Has anyone done any simulations that show how Britain would have been effected had we joined the Euro? Germany seems to be doing ok and they're in the Euro. Maybe we would have turned out like Germany! You seem to think the only thing that can bring down Germany is Brexit because oddly, we have a trade deficit with them! Very odd..... We're not expecting to or interested in bringing down Germany. The single currency depends on economic synchronising (converging) with Germany's. Obviously there is no problem for the German economy to converge with itself. This is exactly what knackered the Uk economy when we joined the ERM. Why on earth would anybody do simulations of this and then trust those results over the actually experimental data from the UK in the ERM and the experiences of those countries which joined the Euro and then were unable to achieve or maintain synchronisation with Germany? A single currency cannot function without a single treasury and massive perpetual wealth transfers fro richer areas to poorer ones. The people who said it could are complete muppets. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 13:27 ---------- It is only those companies who export that provide income for the UK. No. Not how it works. Not at all. Even if it were less than half our trade is with the EU and even in the worst case, most would continue. Edited June 13, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 We're not expecting to or interested in bringing down Germany. The single currency depends on economic synchronising (converging) with Germany's. Obviously there is no problem for the German economy to converge with itself. This is exactly what knackered the Uk economy when we joined the ERM. Why on earth would anybody do simulations of this and then trust those results over the actually experimental data from the UK in the ERM and the experiences of those countries which joined the Euro and then were unable to achieve or maintain synchronisation with Germany? A single currency cannot function without a single treasury and massive perpetual wealth transfers fro richer areas to poorer ones. The people who said it could are complete muppets. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 13:27 ---------- No. Not how it works. Not at all. Even if it were less than half our trade is with the EU and even in the worst case, most would continue. If companies want to sell products to within the EU then they must comply with the relevant directives and CE mark the products accordingly. For manufacturers to continue to sell, they must comply with current and future directives. But they will lose all opportunity to help to design those directives. They'll finish up having to implement directives that may not suit their product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 We're not expecting to or interested in bringing down Germany. Sorry, that was a little Carte Noire overexcited rhetoric on my part. I don't disagree that joining the euro would likely have been catastrophic. But is there absolute proof? Anyway, this isn't about that. My point is we have a trade deficit with Germany and with Europe. You think that's a good thing because of 'leverage.' I think that's a slightly naïve response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) If companies want to sell products to within the EU then they must comply with the relevant directives and CE mark the products accordingly. For manufacturers to continue to sell, they must comply with current and future directives. But they will lose all opportunity to help to design those directives. They'll finish up having to implement directives that may not suit their product. It's not like they each had a veto on new regulations before. They can still lobby anyway. We're only talking about the very small fraction of businesses which trade with the EU. For that we impose needless regulation on the rest of the economy. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 13:50 ---------- Sorry, that was a little Carte Noire overexcited rhetoric on my part. I don't disagree that joining the euro would likely have been catastrophic. But is there absolute proof? Anyway, this isn't about that. My point is we have a trade deficit with Germany and with Europe. You think that's a good thing because of 'leverage.' I think that's a slightly naïve response. No. It's very bad thing. Switching to trading more elsewhere (where we have a surplus) would help. The problem largely arises out of the fact that EU trading rules have always been optimised for the things which Germany produce. However it may be helpful when negotiating a post-Brexit trading relationship as the very influential Germany has a lot to lose from a hostile trading environment. Edited June 13, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 The 6-7% of UK businesses which trade with the EU would have to comply with EU regulations.That 6-7% of UK businesses make up 45% of the UK's total exports. We've been through this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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