EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[Eater Sundae]

Us older generations have lived through the EU years and see what a farce it is.

 

Dont forget we , including myself did NOT vote for a European union back in the 70`s . we voted for a common market . The young , still wet behind the ears , first time voters havnt got a clue about the damage the EU has caused over the years , us older ones do.

 

Its time to get out of this farce.

 

I am also old enough to have voted for the common market. And am old enough to see the benefits it has provided over the years.

[unbeliever]

What was it Bastiat said about tariffs? They are inherently counterproductive...

 

To both those who impose them and those who pay them.

Which is why they are ever rarer and smaller in the modern world.

 

Let's not forget that outside the EU, we're under no obligation to maintain the tariffs that the EU currently imposes on imports to the UK from outside the EU.

Edited June 13, 2016 by unbeliever

[Tomjames]

We should believe the markets, which are saying loud and clear that the economy will be seriously damaged if we leave the EU. Which would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, given the power that the markets have over the economy.

 

Though I don't know how relevant the economy actually is, given that Farage et al. are admitting that the economy will be damaged but that that's a price well worth paying in order to reduce the levels of immigration (though they're not very clear about how they would go about that).

 

They can't reduce immigration, that's why its not clear.

 

The markets clearly warn us with the weakening of the pound, what is going to happen.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 15:11 ----------

 

Since my company is an import/export business, it is apparent that some people here are getting rather unnecessarily concerned about trade deals and tariffs.

 

Our customers and suppliers, whether in or out of the EU, would be quite amused to hear such doom-mongering. The consensus from them is that trade will just carry on regardless. It's not Governments that oil trade, it's us.

 

Our Group Procurement Director has just returned from Turkey, and our suppliers there are optimistic about trade if we exit the EU. Other customers/suppliers might be slightly more/less optimistic, as may other business sectors, but this doom-mongering is laughable.

 

As I keep saying, such talk is just noise ... with the volume notched up to 11 to keep us from noticing what's really important. That the EU has become anti-democratic, anti-market, anti-innovation, pro-statism, pro-corporatism and pro-bureaucracy.

 

Individual Business makes trade. However, trade deals are vital for certain industries. Pharmaceutical for one example.

[Shef1985]

To both those who impose them and those who pay them.

Let's not forget that outside the EU, we're under no obligation to maintain the tariffs that the EU currently imposes on imports to the UK.

Which is why they are ever rarer and smaller in the modern world.

 

Reasoned reply...better than most 'if they tariff us we'll tariff them right back' typical TV Brexiter's response.

[Bonzo77]

I hope all the leave voters will be happy when the UK leaves the EU, which it will. Handing total control to, not just the Conservative party, but the far right of the party.

 

Michael Gove, a man who has been quoted as saying "the British people are fed up of experts", a man who allowed unqualified teachers to teach in our schools!

 

I'm a euro sceptic, but I'm voting in because I'm terrified of the alternative. I'd rather remain and work to change the EU.

But.....sadly it looks like that's not gonna happen. Let's make Britain Great again.......step up Prime Minister Johnson!

[unbeliever]

Reasoned reply...better than most 'if they tariff us we'll tariff them right back' typical TV Brexiter's response.

 

I do try. As I can see do you. Which is why we keep talking I suspect.

 

I think we both agree that there is economic risk from leaving.

I also think that there is substantial risk associated with staying.

Either way there is risk from turmoil in the Eurozone, which I think would affect us a little less if we're not in the EU.

We differ in our estimates of the scale of each of these risks. Perhaps because we have been listening to different people, or because we experience different unconscious biases.

 

For me the sovereignty arguments tip the balance comfortably toward Brexit.

Perhaps you are less concerned about sovereignty, or perhaps you evaluate the balance of economic factors quite differently and the sovereignty case is insufficient to tip the balance.

 

Or perhaps you like the idea of being part of a community of 500 million, rather than one of 60 million more than I do. I do wonder why the case for the virtues of supra-national government leading perhaps eventually to a single world-government is so quiet. It's something I believed in fiercely in my youth.

 

At any rate. I respect your opinion and the way in which you arrive at it. I hope that reason wins the day and the collective wisdom of the Uk people proves correct, whatever the outcome.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 15:22 ----------

 

I hope all the leave voters will be happy when the UK leaves the EU, which it will. Handing total control to, not just the Conservative party, but the far right of the party.

 

Michael Gove, a man who has been quoted as saying "the British people are fed up of experts", a man who allowed unqualified teachers to teach in our schools!

 

I'm a euro sceptic, but I'm voting in because I'm terrified of the alternative. I'd rather remain and work to change the EU.

But.....sadly it looks like that's not gonna happen. Let's make Britain Great again.......step up Prime Minister Johnson!

 

I really cannot respect this logic. You're talking about sacrificing what you think best for the next 40 years or more for the UK, to protect the next 4. It makes no sense to me at all. But it's your vote and you must do what you think is right.

[Eater Sundae]

How about hearing him out on how trade will actually be affected by Brexit.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 14:30 ----------

 

 

Don't know. Only the 6-7% which trade with the EU will be directly affected. Others may be asked to produce items to EU standards. That's not the same thing.

 

 

 

There's no indication that we're going to lose a significant fraction of that 45%.

 

It's not that we would lose trade, it's that we would still need to comply with the EU regulations. They do not suddenly disappear as some seem to think.

[Bonzo77]

I do try. As I can see do you. Which is why we keep talking I suspect.

 

I think we both agree that there is economic risk from leaving.

I also think that there is substantial risk associated with staying.

Either way there is risk from turmoil in the Eurozone, which I think would affect us a little less if we're not in the EU.

We differ in our estimates of the scale of each of these risks. Perhaps because we have been listening to different people, or because we experience different unconscious biases.

 

For me the sovereignty arguments tip the balance comfortably toward Brexit.

Perhaps you are less concerned about sovereignty, or perhaps you evaluate the balance of economic factors quite differently and the sovereignty case is insufficient to tip the balance.

 

Or perhaps you like the idea of being part of a community of 500 million, rather than one of 60 million more than I do. I do wonder why the case for the virtues of supra-national government leading perhaps eventually to a single world-government is so quiet. It's something I believed in fiercely in my youth.

 

At any rate. I respect your opinion and the way in which you arrive at it. I hope that reason wins the day and the collective wisdom of the Uk people proves correct, whatever the outcome.

 

---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 15:22 ----------

 

 

I really cannot respect this logic. You're talking about sacrificing what you think best for the next 40 years or more for the UK, to protect the next 4. It makes no sense to me at all. But it's your vote and you must do what you think is right.

 

?? My vote is for what I think will be better for the UK in the long term, not just the next 4 years. I did clearly say that I think we should stay in the EU and work together to make it better.

[unbeliever]

It's not that we would lose trade, it's that we would still need to comply with the EU regulations. They do not suddenly disappear as some seem to think.

 

 

I've said this multiple times.

Only the 6-7% of Uk businesses which do trade with the EU would have to comply with EU regulations and even then only on those aspects of their businesses which relate to EU trade.

There's a world of difference between this, and a regulatory regime which affects all business activity in the whole country.

[L00b]

Our company is a microcosm of the entire UK trade of physical products (so Loob can sell a totally different story).

Now then, I'm not selling a story, I've told it you straight in t'other thread (and if you've recently taken another glance, I have now linked our Chartered Institute's Brexit symposium video in it: 100% correlation with my specific industry-related posts. Unsurprisingly, since practical Brexit consequences can be a fully-known quantity for us at least).

 

Then again, likewise our company is a microcosm of the entire UK trade of legal services (those few that have a heavy import/export trading activity, that is)

Our MD is pooing his pants, but myself and the other directors are not concerned. The people that actually talk to customers and suppliers are not concerned. Our customers are not concerned, our suppliers are not concerned (the non EU ones at least). Some politicians are very concerned.

None of our clients are "pooing their pants", as far as I'm aware. Not the serious/real businesses, at any rate

 

They would be if they knew how much we're going to charge them for re-registering their EU rights in the UK, though

 

Most are contingency planning, certainly all the larger manufacturing ones, the "EU-imbricated" ones (local UK implantations of EU -mostly German- firms, typically technical products and services) and the importing/exporting ones. Some have involved us for IP advice/gameplanning as part of that, particularly those in the FMCG game.

Edited June 13, 2016 by L00b