RickyM Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I wouldn't be so sure about that, the CBI speaks for over 190,000 businesses. It has around 1500 direct and 188500 indirect members. There are 140 trade associations within the confederation who employ 7 million people, about one third of the UK private sector-employed workforce. Haha. They speak for them on business issues - not on European Union membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Haha. Umm, so why did you try to compare the two?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 They speak for them on business issues - not on European Union membership. Is not part of the decision based upon what is best for business in this country?!? Just now you were arguing that it would be better for business for us to be out of the EU, now your saying we shouldn't consider "business issues"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Is not part of the decision based upon what is best for business in this country?!? Just now you were arguing that it would be better for business for us to be out of the EU, now your saying we shouldn't consider "business issues"? Only part. I've been putting forward political concerns. And L00b, I1L2P3 and tzijlstra have been rather helpfully engaging me on these matters. I was hoping they'd respond to my post #442, but so far I've only had a partial response from L00b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Who says we're staying in the EEA? David Cameron. I have also heard you and others in this thread claim, repeatedly, that nothing will change regarding trade. If you are pro leaving the EEA, than good luck, that will be trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) David Cameron. I have also heard you and others in this thread claim, repeatedly, that nothing will change regarding trade. If you are pro leaving the EEA, than good luck, that will be trouble. Why? Are you perhaps unaware the the EU is legally required to enter into a free trade agreement with nations leaving it. P.S. I was genuinely unaware of this commitment by David Cameron. Where can I find it? Edited June 19, 2015 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Only part. I've been putting forward political concerns. And L00b, I1L2P3 and tzijlstra have been rather helpfully engaging me on these matters. I was hoping they'd respond to my post #442, but so far I've only had a partial response from L00b. I did reply, not specifically to that post, but I did point out that the best case relies on an EFTA/EEA-style agreement with the EU. That brings with it: 1. The vast majority of the red tape and regulations that we already have from EU membership 2. No say in that regulation 3. Continued EU contributions of 94% of the current level: £33bn a year This is what you are arguing for based on that report but I can't imagine it's really what you want. The model you really seem to be arguing most strongly for gives a 2.2% permanent loss to GDP by 2030 according to the report you keep referencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Why? Are you perhaps unaware the the EU is legally required to enter into a free trade agreement with nations leaving it. P.S. I was genuinely unaware of this commitment by David Cameron. Where can I find it? First point: Which equals allowing countries to be a part of the EEA Second point: You are aware Cameron wants to stay in the EU, aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) I did reply, not specifically to that post, but I did point out that the best case relies on an EFTA/EEA-style agreement with the EU. That brings with it: 1. The vast majority of the red tape and regulations that we already have from EU membership 2. No say in that regulation 3. Continued EU contributions of 94% of the current level: £33bn a year This is what you are arguing for based on that report but I can't imagine it's really what you want. The model you really seem to be arguing most strongly for gives a 2.2% permanent loss to GDP by 2030 according to the report you keep referencing. The 2.2% loss is for the case of no free trade agreement with the EU. Leaving states are legally entitled to a free trade arrangement under the terms of Lisbon. Where does it say we have to stay in the EEA? The 2 most likely outcomes are some kind of free trade agreement with the EU with whether or not we end up better off dependent on the details of the FTA and how much deregulation we pursue domestically. No doubt I'll be voting for extensive deregulation and you'll be voting against. I look forward to having that debate here in a couple of years time. P.S. Are we talking about the same post? Most of my comments there were on politics, not economics. ---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 20:30 ---------- First point: Which equals allowing countries to be a part of the EEA Second point: You are aware Cameron wants to stay in the EU, aren't you? First point: Where does it say that in the treaty? Second point: You still haven't told me where to find the PM saying we'll remain in the EEA. Still, where did he say that he wants to stay in the EU? We're having a good, healthy, and for the most part very cordial debate here. I would appreciate your thoughts on post #442. Edited June 19, 2015 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 The 2.2% loss is for the case of no free trade agreement with the EU. Leaving states are legally entitled to a free trade arrangement under the terms of Lisbon. Where does it say we have to stay in the EEA? The 2 most likely outcomes are some kind of free trade agreement with the EU with whether or not we end up better off dependent on the details of the FTA and how much deregulation we pursue domestically. No doubt I'll be voting for extensive deregulation and you'll be voting against. I look forward to having that debate here in a couple of years time. P.S. Are we talking about the same post? Most of my comments there were on politics, not economics.. I just posted my thoughts and to understand my focus on the economic angle you need to understand my view on the EU. Like you I don't care much for the fiscal and political aspects of it. I think we need to stay in but primarily as a trading partner to take advantage of the free market and little more. I appreciate your views on ever closer union but can't agree that is inevitable for us because we have always been semi-detached from all that anyway - we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. I think the politics thing is a side-issue really because when it comes down to the crunch the economics of exit will absolutely and utterly trump everything else. Part of that is of course is a debate about economic migration, and as much as people don't like what happens now they are going to detest the alternative outside the EU. Following on from that my view is we need to give the PM a chance to renegotiate before we do anything hasty. My hope is we can just move onto a different track from the core countries focusing on what we do best - trade. So, to answer your question a free trade option will equate to being part of the single market. The EU is unlikely to let us trade freely unless we adopt its rules and regulations for the most part and also contribute to the EU budget, which is exactly what Norway and Switzerland have to do. The -2.2% option based on WTO trade rules is not the same. It is not free trade as such but rather a framework that is designed to promote free-er trade. But....no guarantees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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