Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Says you. Prove its a fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) No. But things went well for us because we ignore the experts and listened to my lot. It was the Conservatives who joined us up to the ERM. Labour broadly supported it but with many misgivings. This is Majors speech to parliament on joining. You can read the reaction of Labour too: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1990/oct/15/exchange-rate-mechanism Edited June 13, 2016 by I1L2T3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) It was the Conservatives who joined us up to the EMU. Labour broadly supported it but with many misgivings. This is Majors speech to parliament on joining. You can read the reaction of Labour too: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1990/oct/15/exchange-rate-mechanism The people I'm listening to (some of whom I've listed) have been consistently against the european project and made accurate predictions about its failure. There are at least as many Labour voices in my choir as Conservative. This is not a party political matter. Major did at least secure the Euro opt-out. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 21:07 ---------- Says you. Prove its a fallacy. But I wrote it in Latin. Must be true. Not sure where the burden of proof lies here. I'm only stating that "after it therefore because of it" is not in of itself proof. And what was the trade unions, scientists, experts in security etc opinion of us joining the euro? I bet they didn't express one. Well they on this and they say remain. First bit of evidence for TUC support for Euro entry: http://www.wtuclearn.org.uk/node/50535?language=cy CBI: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiAxPPJ6KXNAhWGAMAKHXcfAqkQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fhi%2Fbusiness%2F120407.stm&usg=AFQjCNGGzQKS9VBhB5DHzYcT6KnNJcOlow&sig2=oSDsUDSwThvsiUqRq6nRmg https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiAxPPJ6KXNAhWGAMAKHXcfAqkQFggkMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuknews%2F1347701%2FCBI-tells-Blair-to-get-off-the-fence-and-back-euro.html&usg=AFQjCNHi4j5OBkifu99tuX2Tbkiz6pErXg&sig2=AiZNV4oit_GMUwwXQwErQg https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiAxPPJ6KXNAhWGAMAKHXcfAqkQFgg2MAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fbusiness%2F1999%2Fjul%2F20%2F15&usg=AFQjCNHpegDKufhAriV1esjnwgEDDel0Kw&sig2=_682AlfvUWA_ea_tFe89tw Edited June 13, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 The people I'm listening to (some of whom I've listed) have been consistently against the european project and made accurate predictions about its failure. There are at least as many Labour voices in my choir as Conservative. This is not a party political matter. Major did at least secure the Euro opt-out. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 21:07 ---------- But I wrote it in Latin. Must be true. Not sure where the burden of proof lies here. I'm only stating that "after it therefore because of it" is not in of itself proof. First bit of evidence for TUC support for Euro entry: http://www.wtuclearn.org.uk/node/50535?language=cy CBI: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiAxPPJ6KXNAhWGAMAKHXcfAqkQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fhi%2Fbusiness%2F120407.stm&usg=AFQjCNGGzQKS9VBhB5DHzYcT6KnNJcOlow&sig2=oSDsUDSwThvsiUqRq6nRmg https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiAxPPJ6KXNAhWGAMAKHXcfAqkQFggkMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuknews%2F1347701%2FCBI-tells-Blair-to-get-off-the-fence-and-back-euro.html&usg=AFQjCNHi4j5OBkifu99tuX2Tbkiz6pErXg&sig2=AiZNV4oit_GMUwwXQwErQg https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiAxPPJ6KXNAhWGAMAKHXcfAqkQFgg2MAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fbusiness%2F1999%2Fjul%2F20%2F15&usg=AFQjCNHpegDKufhAriV1esjnwgEDDel0Kw&sig2=_682AlfvUWA_ea_tFe89tw Ok, your TUC thing doesn't say anything about us joining the euro. From your Latin argument I saw something that made the case that we were successful as a direct result of joining the EU. I cannot remember where I saw it but will endeavour to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) Ok, your TUC thing doesn't say anything about us joining the euro. Does too. Just refers to it as EMU (economic and monetary union). Here's more: https://www.tuc.org.uk/economic-issues/john-monks-warns-dangers-euro-exclusion-2 Edited June 13, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Does too. Just refers to it as EMU (economic and monetary union). "The government has done many good things, but it needs a coherent and determined strategy to tackle the manufacturing crisis. This should range from more help for the victims of redundancy through to using its strong leadership role internationally to help restore the Euro-pound exchange rate to a sensible level. We cannot afford a boom-bust exchange rate, and will not be in a position to make a real choice about the Euro unless we have a sensible exchange rate" That's not an endorsement to join the Euro. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 21:40 ---------- Does too. Just refers to it as EMU (economic and monetary union). Here's more: https://www.tuc.org.uk/economic-issues/john-monks-warns-dangers-euro-exclusion-2 "But even more important than the five tests is the need for a sustainable exchange rate between the pound and the euro. The relative strength of the pound against the euro is causing severe problems for British manufacturing and tourism. There has already been a loss of well over 100,000 jobs linked to currency volatility since the launch of the euro in an economy which, overall, has continued to grow." That is clearly AFTER the euro entered circulation, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 "The government has done many good things, but it needs a coherent and determined strategy to tackle the manufacturing crisis. This should range from more help for the victims of redundancy through to using its strong leadership role internationally to help restore the Euro-pound exchange rate to a sensible level. We cannot afford a boom-bust exchange rate, and will not be in a position to make a real choice about the Euro unless we have a sensible exchange rate" That's not an endorsement to join the Euro. ---------- Post added 13-06-2016 at 21:40 ---------- "But even more important than the five tests is the need for a sustainable exchange rate between the pound and the euro. The relative strength of the pound against the euro is causing severe problems for British manufacturing and tourism. There has already been a loss of well over 100,000 jobs linked to currency volatility since the launch of the euro in an economy which, overall, has continued to grow." That is clearly AFTER the euro entered circulation, not before. Okay, so not exactly pushing hard for Euro membership, but complaining a lot about the effects of being out. The CBI were pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shef1985 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Okay, so not exactly pushing hard for Euro membership, but complaining a lot about the effects of being out. The CBI were pretty clear. Ok, we don't need to flood the thread with counter examples all night. I know you take my point and I take yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Ok, we don't need to flood the thread with counter examples all night. I know you take my point and I take yours. Fair enough. We'll call it a draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Say what you want about the €uro, I'm rather glad I transferred a sizeable chunk of £s into €s a while back: the old Sterling is taking a right slapping! Exporters must be cheering...but I'm not looking forward to pump prices and groceries shop by the time the referendum comes round! I was also directed to this interesting piechart earlier tonight, on the thorny issue of how much it costs the UK taxpayer (on the average UK wage) to be in the EU. Linked here for future reference. To my great shame, I'll confess to have never heard of Richard Corbett MEP until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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