EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[hauxwell]

They've been drifting away from the idea for a number of years. They finally withdrew their application in March.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations#Proposals_for_EU_membership

They had a referendum 2 years ago on whether to withdraw from (technically apply a cap to) their free movement arrangements with the EU which passed.

The whole thing is falling apart, and rapidly losing the consent of the European people. If we stay in we're asking for trouble.

 

Thank you for that and I am voting to leave.

[Tomjames]

All is not well in Switzerland out of the EU. Switzerland has been cut off from academic funding and international talent.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/11/whatever-you-do-dont-become-switzerland-swiss-academics-tell-uk

 

"For those who argue that a Brexit would have little impact on the UK’s world-leading universities since the government would simply cut a Swiss-style deal with Brussels, Switzerland’s post-referendum fright is an interesting case study. If you question the union’s core principles, it suggests, you can expect few favours."

Edited June 21, 2016 by Tomjames
........

[unbeliever]

All is not well in Switzerland out of the EU. Switzerland has been cut off from academic funding and international talent.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/11/whatever-you-do-dont-become-switzerland-swiss-academics-tell-uk

 

"For those who argue that a Brexit would have little impact on the UK’s world-leading universities since the government would simply cut a Swiss-style deal with Brussels, Switzerland’s post-referendum fright is an interesting case study. If you question the union’s core principles, it suggests, you can expect few favours."

 

Funny. I work at the University and we have a lot of dealings with CERN, based in Switzerland. We've not encountered any such problems in the last 2 years.

Do you have any non-Guardian sources?

[L00b]

Funny. I work at the University and we have a lot of dealings with CERN, based in Switzerland. We've not encountered any such problems in the last 2 years.

CERN is resourced independently of the EU and Switzerland (-alone)

 

According to that link, Switzerland only contributes 3.odd % of the CERN budget.

 

CERN is not an EU body, but an international organisation established by treaty/agreement, just like e.g. the UN or the European Patent Office or the WTO.

 

The EU withdrawing any funding to Switzerland's own academia and R&D, isn't going to cause so much as a mouse fart at CERN. I don't expect that it will impact EU-CERN arms' length relationship either. It's only the Swiss' own academia losing out

Edited June 21, 2016 by L00b

[Zamo]

I'd argue that we haven't surrendered sovereignty.

 

The EU cannot force us to enact any laws that our elected officials felt wasn't in our best interests, our elected officials are free to leave the EU if they feel it was in the countries interest.

 

You have simply restated what I said. In the EU we surrender sovereignty and out of the EU we regain it. If we want full sovereignty then we have to do as you say and leave the EU.

 

So you voting out on something on principle that happened 70 years ago (and it could be argued it wasn't our freedom that was fought for rather that of the Europe we are now opted into) and not on the reality of the last 40 years. Is that what you are saying?

 

There was no decision taken 70 years ago to surrender non-trade related powers to the EU and, even if there had been, I still wouldn't feel obliged to honour it now.

 

The reality is that, whatever way you want to try and spin it, in the EU we have less democratic control and cede sovereignty. If, for example, you asked people whether they think we should give the people of the EU a say in our immigration policies then the vast majority would say no. But that is the reality. The British people do not have the power to change the EU's free movement of people policy. That power can only be restored by leaving the EU so our government becomes fully responsible for immigration policy and we alone hold them to account for their decisions. Same too when it comes to non-trade related laws e.g. human rights.

 

I am happy to cede to the will of the majority in the EU on trade related matter but everything else should be a matter for the governments we elect. It is a matter of principle and that is why I'm voting to leave.

[El Cid]

Do you have a view on this matter of principle? What's your case for surrendering democratic control and sovereignty that previous generations fought and struggled so hard for?

 

England was once refereed to as the Land of the Angles, Scotland had their own Monach, times change.

In a few years, I would think we will be ruled by the EU; things will change as travel becomes easier.

100 years ago it would take a long time to get from one end of the country to the other, now it can be done in a matter of hours.

[SnailyBoy]

What possible difference could that make?

 

I am saying that it should be a matter of principle that we have a government that the people of this country can hold 100% to account for the laws and policies imposed on us. We can argue to the cows come home whether a specific EU laws or policies is good or bad but, either way, it never changes the fact that the British public cannot solely hold to account those in the EU that are responsible for them.

 

Do you have a view on this matter of principle? What's your case for surrendering democratic control and sovereignty that previous generations fought and struggled so hard for?

 

Fine, I was just curious to see if there was a specific EU law that had a negative impact on you personally. If there isn't, great.

 

I don't need a case 'for surrendering democratic control and sovereignty that previous generations fought and struggled so hard for?'. That's your position.

[Zamo]

England was once refereed to as the Land of the Angles, Scotland had their own Monach, times change.

In a few years, I would think we will be ruled by the EU; things will change as travel becomes easier.

100 years ago it would take a long time to get from one end of the country to the other, now it can be done in a matter of hours.

 

Would that be a good or a bad thing in your view?

 

The problem with giving up sovereignty and deferring to the majority will of the people of Europe is that things can change. What if the EU takes a sharp turn and those, like Corbyn who argue to stay in the EU to keep the Tories iin check re workers rights, suddenly don't like the sort of laws and policies being imposed? As I am sure most people will have noticed, the far right is surging across many parts of Europe, fuelled by the migrant crisis, and there are no signs of it abating. What if the European superstate dream turns into a nightmare as the far right becomes the majority? Will Corbyn still support an EU if it istop a democratically elected Labour government from implementing their policies? Somehow I think he would change his opinion and that says all we need to know about his principles and respect for democracy.

 

If we want full self-rule then we must leave the EU.

[panzer1]

2 of the last 3 polls give remain the lead, the biggest with a sample of just 800, so I may have to admit project terror has worked.

So if we vote to remain, as you lot keep pointing out that it takes only one veto to scupper anything in the eu, and daves crap concessions are not ratified will we have another referendum?.

Obviously if they are scrapped, which is as likely as being ratified as there is nothing binding, he will have won on false pretences.

My thoughts are that we would have to go through this all again because the press would never let it go and neither would his eurosceptic, in fact it would probably bring his govt down.

It is hoped that all those eastern countries that did not like the concessions behave themselves.

[Zamo]

I don't need a case 'for surrendering democratic control and sovereignty that previous generations fought and struggled so hard for?'. That's your position.

 

It isn't my position... it is what is at stake.

 

Vote stay to accept the loss of sovereignty to the EU or vote leave to regain it. Predicting the outcome following either choice may be complicated and confusing but the basic principle at stake is not.