EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[999tigger]

I understand that, but you missed the point I was making. The Swiss were free to make their own choice, and that freedom came from not being a member state of EU. There is also an issue many fail to grasp and/or understand, and that point being that there exists a major difference between immigration and mass uncontrolled immigration. then we have the trade issue to consider. Do you seriously believe that EU member states like Germany, France, Italy, etc would cease to trade with UK should it leave the block? This argument is nonsense. We can add what Juncker for EU stated to global population that without free movement what is the point of being a member of Eurozone. I would also point out that the USA, China, Japan, etc are not EU member states but trade with EU, and note that even a small country like Iceland has even made its own trade deal with China. To even imply the UK could not do the same or better is also nonsense.

 

Yes you can make your own choice, but in fact they made 2 choices hence having it both ways, which isnt really going to work.

 

I think everyone understands being out of the EU will give the UK more control over policy, arent you stating the obvious? Who fails to grasp that?

 

Would we cease to trade with the EU? No thats just a strawman raised by you. What it would mean is a different relationship with the EU, which would be less efficient and more expensive. Not being in the EU will mean some businesses will relocate so as to remain in the EU and single market.

 

Yes we can make trade deals with other countries, but you have more bargaining power as a group of 28 rather than a group of 1.

[PhoenixOneUK]

Yes you can make your own choice, but in fact they made 2 choices hence having it both ways, which isnt really going to work.

 

I think everyone understands being out of the EU will give the UK more control over policy, arent you stating the obvious? Who fails to grasp that?

 

Would we cease to trade with the EU? No thats just a strawman raised by you. What it would mean is a different relationship with the EU, which would be less efficient and more expensive. Not being in the EU will mean some businesses will relocate so as to remain in the EU and single market.

 

Yes we can make trade deals with other countries, but you have more bargaining power as a group of 28 rather than a group of 1.

 

As you say, the point made is obvious, but it is also one that the in camp keeps trying to push. As for strawman, I put it to you that that point is also an obvious one. I should also point out that I was once also an exporter (software), and where exports are concerned please note that there are usually NO taxes (tariffs) on exports only imports (look it up). Further, the world is a much larger place than those that comprise of EU, and note there are many European countries who are not members of EU. Further, the Commonwealth itself possesses twice the membership of EU and four times its population. I would further suggest that many items imported from EU member states would probably be cheaper if imported from rest of the world. Further to this note that many items imported from other member states actually originated from rest of the world. As such many such manufacturers in EU are in reality only assembly plants that assemble parts made elsewhere. That includes the Honda plant here in Swindon who have already made major investments for future expansion regardless of whether the UK exits the EU or not.

[tzijlstra]

It does because...

...that group is very sizeable (to the extent of possibly constituting a majority, relative to the whole voting population - it includes OAPs, for a start).

 

The outcome of the referendum will not turn solely on the topic of migration, no matter how much hot-cold shower treatment massmedia visits on the UK public about it until then.

 

But make no mistake, migration absolutely is one of the few fundamental topics (perceived independence and economical consequences being the 2 others IMHO) that will decide it, when you consider distinct UK voting groups as a homogeneous whole. Relatively recent GE results throughout the EU prove as much, and there is no objective reason to believe that the UK public is presently any more multiculturalist/less anti-immigration than the Poles, French, Swedes <etc.>.

 

With economically not mobile I excluded those of non-work eligibility like OAPs, they don't actually matter (other than being a cost to society which needs to be covered by a strong economy) in relation to the workforce (ie. employment).

 

---------- Post added 28-01-2016 at 15:22 ----------

 

Such arrogance that you think it's for you tell people what reasons are acceptable for wanting to leave the EU!

 

Yes, it's the race of migrants that makes them useless and nothing to do with the language barrier, the lack of skills and education, the fact they'll collectively make a negative financial contribution, that the will create social tension because their cultural and religious beliefs and practices don't fit Westen values and nothing to do with the fact it will put further strain on creaking hospitals, doctors surgeries, schools and social services.

 

Your problem (one of them anyway) is you can't distinguish between immigration control (bringing in those we need and add value) from no immigration. That's your problem.

 

See I1L2T3's reply. I can distinguish between immigration control and no immigration, you think you will get either, you won't. Hence my continued argument that pointing towards the EU to resolve immigration problems is naive.

 

Are you aware by the way how xenophobic/racist your comment about usefulness is? I assume you will come out and say I am politically correct and rubbish and this that and the next thing, let me pre-empt that. I'd rather be politically correct and open minded whilst searching for solutions to real issues than dogmatic, racist and blinkered.

 

It seems to be a silver bullet for immigration control and for ceasing EU contributions, those along with freeing us from EU legislation. Leaving actually achieves none of those things automatically. The vote to leave camp actually say nothing about any of this.

 

EU contributions would likely not cease anyway, if you want to be part of the free trade club, you pay. See Norway and Switzerland. It might be less than what Britain pays now, but there won't be anything coming back either.

 

And similarly, I doubt the people at the top of Both the EU and HM government who (To me) don't seem bothered about doing anything about checking the flood aren't affected by it, not competing for low paid jobs with them, not waiting weeks for doctors appointments, not competing for scarce social housing with them (Doubtful in rural Oxfordshire anyway), won't have their childrens education affected by it, not too many children of penniless migrants at Eton or St Pauls or Fettes.

 

That being said, unfortunately, the disasters in the countries the migrants are leaving are partly down to our do-gooding government poking its nose into societies and conflicts it didn't seem to begin to understand so you could argue it's up to us to reap the whirlwind, maybe Tony B Liar could put some of them up in some of his many houses.

 

Eton, St Pauls or Fettes are probably staying afloat due to lil' Sheik, Ivan and Wu being allowed to be taught there

 

I'd like to make the point that it is a minority that is affected by migration, not just the top. The points you make about doctors appointments, social housing and education do not apply to the vast majority of people in the country, they are blown out of proportion in this discussion by those that need ammunition, in reality it isn't anywhere near as big an issue as people make out.

 

What does affect people is the lack of funding, the UK is still running a 4,5% deficit, that lack of funding is going to stay around for quite some time yet, especially as the pound is now rapidly losing ground - not very good for a net-importing nation.

[L00b]

With economically not mobile I excluded those of non-work eligibility like OAPs, they don't actually matter (other than being a cost to society which needs to be covered by a strong economy) in relation to the workforce (ie. employment).

They'll vote in the referendum just the same, Tim. Just sayin'

[tzijlstra]

They'll vote in the referendum just the same, Tim. Just sayin'

 

I was merely referring back to the context of the discussion L00b

[gomgeg]

I don't think that the people who are intensely anti-EU have thought things though, who and what are they going to blame if we do actually leave the EU?

I don't think the people who are intensely pro-EU have thought things through, who and what are they going to blame if we do remain in the EU?

[JFKvsNixon]

I don't think the people who are intensely pro-EU have thought things through, who and what are they going to blame if we do remain in the EU?

 

I don't see many pro-EU people scapegoating people, so your comment doesn't make any sense!

[foxy lady]

Thanks. I see that at least 3 of those are in recovery. There are 28 countries so some of them are going to be at the bottom of the pile.

 

Corbyns an irrelevance. He has no chance. he has made defence an issue where it wasnt before.

 

The EU is now out of its depth. The Greek experience showed us that. There are new countries in the EU and shortly to join the Euro where £200/month would be a good wage, and where folk aspire to owning a bicycle. We cannot cope with the masses arriving on our shores, overwhelming our health service and expecting to get jobs here on 10 times that amount.

[gomgeg]

I don't see many pro-EU people scapegoating people, so your comment doesn't make any sense!

It makes as much sense as yours, so why are you scapegoating me?

[Zamo]

Are you aware by the way how xenophobic/racist your comment about usefulness is? I assume you will come out and say I am politically correct and rubbish and this that and the next thing, let me pre-empt that. I'd rather be politically correct and open minded whilst searching for solutions to real issues than dogmatic, racist and blinkered.

 

What I want is selection where he judge the useful and useless based on individual merits. But we let them in as a collective and can therefore only pass judgement on their contribution as a collective. If that's racist then I don't care.