EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[Tomjames]

The difference is simply that we have UKIP offering a non-racist solution to the problems of mass immigration and their rise brought about the demise of the BNP. Something the Left could never do by shouting 'racist' at people with immigration concerns.

 

And here we are today. With a vote on whether to leave the EU hanging in the balance and the biggest driver (rightly or wrongly) for people wanting out is the lack of immigration control. Even if the vote goes to Remain the concerns are not going to go away and are only going to grow stronger. The march towards the right (UKIP in this country) will continue until the ruling elite do the people's bidding or lose their grip on power. And in other parts of Europe the threat to the ruling elite is a lot more scary than UKIP.

 

Shoving left-wing and liberal ideas down the throat of an un-supportive general public is not making them more left-wing and liberal... it has the opposite effect. Only a return to the centre ground were most people want to stand is going to stop the polarisation of politics that is currently happening.

 

Farage standing on the border of Slovenia infront of a poster of brown people isnt racist?

 

---------- Post added 23-06-2016 at 10:13 ----------

 

UKIP offering s non racist solution ! "The march towards the right (UKIP)"

 

 

I'm not sure if you actually believe all this but UKIP went into a General Election 12 months ago with 2 MPs and emerged with just 1...Hardly indicative of a "march" to power.

 

Unless you're referring to something less constitutional

 

Thanks for vocalising. Stupidity should be outed.

 

---------- Post added 23-06-2016 at 10:21 ----------

 

On the immigration issue. Norway and Switzerland have free movement of people. Just to be clear about what happens post-brexit.

[muddywolf]

The odds are certain for a remain, if people are confident of a vote leave you can currently get £640 back from a £100 bet.

https://m.smarkets.com/politics/uk/eu-referendum/referendum-result/

[apelike]

Juncker only has the power elected politicians give him. The Brexit side has done nothing but tell lie after lie - the amount we pay in, Turkey's about to join, we can decide our own destiny, dictated by unelected Brussels bureaucrats, etc, etc.

 

To be fair both side have done nothing but lie.

 

If the country votes out we'll have ten years of economic collapse.

 

See, there is another one

[Tomjames]

I don't know about 10 years but expect an immediate downturn with a few good years of struggle.

Canada has taken 7 years to put a trade deal together with the EU.

[unbeliever]

I don't know about 10 years but expect an immediate downturn with a few good years of struggle.

Canada has taken 7 years to put a trade deal together with the EU.

 

Surely you understand that the existing trade arrangements by default remain in place unless and until either the UK or the EU change them.

[tzijlstra]

Not sure I understood it all ('exogenous given'?) but a powerful piece of writing nontheless.

I gather Greece is pleading with the UK for help, by staying in the EU and taking it by the scruff of its neck and shaking it until it finally yields to true democratic reform to make it the brilliant institution it could be. Is that right?

 

I think the EU's treatment of Greece has been appalling and not helped it recover one bit. Germany seems to have a sadistic tendency to almost enjoy punishing Greece for its impoverishment. No doubt Greece has made big mistakes (haven't we all?) but the whole idea of the EU is supposed to be to help each other out when in need. And there's more than just Greece in a similar position. So yes, the UK should step in and try to help.

 

This however will require wholesale change which the EU institution is resisting with all its might. It also seems to resent Britain for trying. So, in or out, we have a battle on our hands. But it won't be the first time will it. Funny, (not really) but once again we seem to be up against the Germans, and be fighting for democracy. Strange, the way the world turns. I do so hope it stays a war of words... Can somebody tell me who put Germany in charge?

 

I suppose we could just walk away, but we won't will we.. ?

 

An exogenous given - what he means is that for some reason the Brits deny that they helped create the EU and feel it is some alien thing. It isn't, Britain had a role in shaping the EU into what it is as much, if not more, as every other EU member-state.

 

And on Germany - the only people who are putting Germany in apparent charge are the British. I never hear this nonsense that Germany is in charge in the Netherlands or other member states. The Greek situation was resolved by Merkel pledging money to bail them out, that gave the Germans some say in what should or should not happen with that money, but it didn't put the Germans in charge of the EU.

 

It is the usual misunderstanding of how the EU works that leads people to believe that sort of thing.

[Eater Sundae]

The difference is simply that we have UKIP offering a non-racist solution to the problems of mass immigration and their rise brought about the demise of the BNP. Something the Left could never do by shouting 'racist' at people with immigration concerns.

 

And here we are today. With a vote on whether to leave the EU hanging in the balance and the biggest driver (rightly or wrongly) for people wanting out is the lack of immigration control. Even if the vote goes to Remain the concerns are not going to go away and are only going to grow stronger. The march towards the right (UKIP in this country) will continue until the ruling elite do the people's bidding or lose their grip on power. And in other parts of Europe the threat to the ruling elite is a lot more scary than UKIP.

 

Shoving left-wing and liberal ideas down the throat of an un-supportive general public is not making them more left-wing and liberal... it has the opposite effect. Only a return to the centre ground were most people want to stand is going to stop the polarisation of politics that is currently happening.

 

I hope we vote remain, and then that everyone tries to address the points raised by Zamo.

 

If we vote to leave, I believe there is a serious risk that some will take this as a green light to pick on immigrants.

 

If we vote to stay, there is a risk that some who already feel disenfranchised will feel even more so as they have not been listened to, and they will take it out on immigrants.

 

Either way, there is a risk of unrest and scapegoating.

 

In my ideal scenario, in which I hope we will vote remain, the outers will accept the will of the people and actively work towards a better Europe WITHIN the system, instead of sitting on the edges, moaning. However, it will also be necessary for the "winners" to acknowledge the concerns of the "losers" and make this a key aspect of developing the EU.

[Tomjames]

Surely you understand that the existing trade arrangements by default remain in place unless and until either the UK or the EU change them.

 

There's 2 years removal from EU period. 2 years of uncertainty straight off the bat.

Who knows how long it will take to get back on course thereafter.

 

The leave camp don't know.

[MobileB]

Surely you understand that the existing trade arrangements by default remain in place unless and until either the UK or the EU change them.

 

Once we come out (2 years max) we will default to WTO regulation if no other agreement has been reached. This is very complex based on the type of goods but there are default tariffs of between 4 and 10% for most goods although some are much higher (and with it increased paperwork .... otherwise known as red tape......). The head of the WTO says we didn't really ought to default to this and instead should stay in, it is a much better deal.

[*_ash_*]

Still deciding whether to spoil or vote out. I probably won't decide until get in the voting booth.

 

I'm just watching this Paxman show from last night, it's actually better than most others I've seen, I wish this had been on earlier rather than all the drivel that has been on.

 

The remainers were terrible again I thought. I like Nigel Lawson so I was keen to listen to him and just read this in the Guardian. He was drowned out though by shouting people. Theo Pathitis (sp) was also good. The TUC woman that was on, and on the QT debate the other day was dreadful, how is this person in charge of anything?!

 

I was just thinking about this whole thing and how much it has split the country, and how this will go on for years.

 

Possible outcomes:

1. Leave, things go wrong - all the people who voted out will be demonised

2. Leave, things go well - all the people who voted in will be able to be quiet, and will no doubt claim that things change

3. Stay, things go wrong - (EU collapse - this has been my stance) all the in voters who voted in IN will claim that it is the EU's fault and they didn't see it coming and had nothing to do with any referendum

4. Stay, things stay as they are - the easy vote and will win the referendum, and people will still argue for years that it would have been better if we left.