EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[PhoenixOneUK]

I'm not saying that the people running the EU are blameless and that they haven't made any mistakes. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the current bunch are really making a huge mess of things. You could also say the some about our national parliaments as well though, and we're not talking about getting rid or our national parliaments though.

 

I think that what you say is right for many people, for them it is a nationalist issue and they want British people running the country irrespective of what it means.

 

My view point as someone who is pro the EU ideal, is that it is a national interest issue and I believe it is in our national interest to be at the heart of Europe. I believe we have a lot to offer Europe and Europe has a lot to offer us.

 

---------- Post added 28-01-2016 at 18:03 ----------

 

 

There are very few people here on SF that have put forward the idea of open borders.

 

Of course the UK has a lot to offer Europe, and same goes the other way, but Europe is not the EU. As for our own Parliament, it comprises of parties the people elect to govern our country, and if they fail they can be voted out. I would further point out that our government was elected to represent the British people, and the same goes in other member states where the population elects who they want to govern their country. In comparison, the EU comprises of 28 member states, and what may be good for one does not mean it will be good for all. This one size fits all policy is what caused the Eurozone crisis, and that too is ongoing.

[Quik]

I'm not saying that the people running the EU are blameless and that they haven't made any mistakes. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the current bunch are really making a huge mess of things. You could also say the some about our national parliaments as well though, and we're not talking about getting rid or our national parliaments though.

 

I think that what you say is right for many people, for them it is a nationalist issue and they want British people running the country irrespective of what it means.

 

My view point as someone who is pro the EU ideal, is that it is a national interest issue and I believe it is in our national interest to be at the heart of Europe. I believe we have a lot to offer Europe and Europe has a lot to offer us.

 

---------- Post added 28-01-2016 at 18:03 ----------

 

 

There are very few people here on SF that have put forward the idea of open borders.

 

I don't see it as nationalism to want the people we elect (and more importantly can get rid of next time) to be responsible for the laws that affect us all. It's just basic democracy. Thanks to the EU an unelected PM in Gordon Brown was able to sign us up to the lisbon treaty which we are now stuck with, the whole principle of the EU is as soon as one government gives them a power future governments can't take them back, again fundamentally undemocratic. Further I do not believe that one size fits all lawmaking is in the interests of any nation in a continent as economically and culturally diverse as Europe.

 

Decades ago The EEC had to choose between ever closer union and ever wider expansion, it chose to do both which is why its falling apart and hopefully Brexit will be the final nail in the coffin and European countries can return to laws that suit their particular needs, trade deals that work best for their very varied economies and currencys that suit their particular economic circumstances.

[999tigger]

As you say, the point made is obvious, but it is also one that the in camp keeps trying to push. As for strawman, I put it to you that that point is also an obvious one. I should also point out that I was once also an exporter (software), and where exports are concerned please note that there are usually NO taxes (tariffs) on exports only imports (look it up). Further, the world is a much larger place than those that comprise of EU, and note there are many European countries who are not members of EU. Further, the Commonwealth itself possesses twice the membership of EU and four times its population. I would further suggest that many items imported from EU member states would probably be cheaper if imported from rest of the world. Further to this note that many items imported from other member states actually originated from rest of the world. As such many such manufacturers in EU are in reality only assembly plants that assemble parts made elsewhere. That includes the Honda plant here in Swindon who have already made major investments for future expansion regardless of whether the UK exits the EU or not.

 

 

So these are the points you made:

1. If we leave, we get more control in decision making. I said that was obvious and then you say its a point the in camp keeps trying to push. This makes no sense. Why would the remain group emphasise the leave group get more control over decision making? Besides it being obvious I cant see why the remain people would emphasise it?

 

2. The argument you made about people claiming if we left then there would be no trade with the EU, then thats false. I have never seen the remain camp trying to push that absurdity, just you. What will happen is that trade becomes more difficult and more expensive on the basis you are trading from the outside.

 

3. Your point about tariffs? Not sure what it was tariffs can apply to imports or exports depending what the two parties want to do. It doesnt matter whether its applied on the export or import, its still an expense for both parties. If either government wishes to go down that route, then you slip into protectionism, which is not good for trade.

 

4. Your point the world is larger than Europe. Does anyone deny that? The EU still remains our most important market.

5. Your point there are other European countries. yes there are, but the ones that matter are in the EU. These other countries are not significant or are already locked into European trading. We can go through the list if you want, but these European non EU countries are far far less significant.

6. Trading with the Commonwealth, China, the USA etc. Theres nothing to stop us trading with them now. If you wnat do do nilateral trade agreements, then the question is, will the UK be able to have more influence and begotiate a better deal on its own or as a group of 28?

7. Your point if it being cheaper to import from the rest of the world. Then why not do so?

8. Your point about goods from the EU merely being assembled here and being made elsewhere, then nothings stopping you buying your own Honda parts and building your own car. Its a completely nonsensical point.

9. Businesses investing here whether we leave or not? Some will, but many will relocate over time to be within the EU. Think youll find most manufacturers including Honda and all the leading motor manufacturers have expressed a wish to remain in the EU. That doesnt mean they will all just up tools, but if its more attractive to eb within the EU and thats where their markets are, then thats where the new investments will go. You shouldnt have big business making all the decisions, but you can they are heavily in favour of staying in.

 

I cna link you up if need be.

[hauxwell]

I wonder if our European partners are worried in case Britain does leave the EU and other countries also decide to leave. What tactics would be used towards this country to try and discourage other countries from trying to leave? I do not trust these EU ministers. However I certainly can't see Romania or Bulgaria wanting to leave the EU in a hurry.

 

My vote in the referendum will be to leave.

[gomgeg]

I'm not saying that the people running the EU are blameless and that they haven't made any mistakes. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the current bunch are really making a huge mess of things. You could also say the some about our national parliaments as well though, and we're not talking about getting rid or our national parliaments though.

 

I think that what you say is right for many people, for them it is a nationalist issue and they want British people running the country irrespective of what it means.

 

My view point as someone who is pro the EU ideal, is that it is a national interest issue and I believe it is in our national interest to be at the heart of Europe. I believe we have a lot to offer Europe and Europe has a lot to offer us.

 

---------- Post added 28-01-2016 at 18:03 ----------

 

 

There are very few people here on SF that have put forward the idea of open borders.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the EU here, Isn't open borders a basic principle. As for the other issues, no doubt people will be debating them up to and beyond the referendum. I can remember when we had the referendum on the common market and had my doubts then, but what's happened since has convinced me the UK would be better determining it's own future.

We've had a gradual move towards more government from Europe, where everyone votes in their own national interest, or Mrs merkil decides, or as what happens most,"we'll have another meeting later".

[tzijlstra]

The EU is now out of its depth. The Greek experience showed us that. There are new countries in the EU and shortly to join the Euro where £200/month would be a good wage, and where folk aspire to owning a bicycle. We cannot cope with the masses arriving on our shores, overwhelming our health service and expecting to get jobs here on 10 times that amount.

 

Dear me, I didn't realise Pakistan was in line to join! It is this sort of complete and utter misunderstanding of the world that leads to complete and utter misunderstanding of the EU.

 

The average monthly wage in any of the countries near the EU, or indeed that might be near joining the EU have a monthly average income of well over 500£, not only that, if they moved here for work, they are unlikely to commute. In other words, they would have the same sort of expenses as you and me.

 

But hey, "they" aspire to own a bicycle, so "they" are clearly intent on coming here..

 

What I want is selection where he judge the useful and useless based on individual merits. But we let them in as a collective and can therefore only pass judgement on their contribution as a collective. If that's racist then I don't care.

 

Don't deflect, what is racist about what you said is this:

 

"Yes, it's the race of migrants that makes them useless"

 

Try and deny that is racist and I might have to pay for a GCSE in English.

[Zamo]

Don't deflect, what is racist about what you said is this:

 

"Yes, it's the race of migrants that makes them useless"

 

Try and deny that is racist and I might have to pay for a GCSE in English.

 

You quoted half of my sarcastic sentence and totally removed the context. A new desperate low even for you and only damages your (already poor) debating reputation further. My post remains above for all to see the full context. You'll be rearranging words next to change the context. You're an embarrassment.

[Quik]

Dear me, I didn't realise Pakistan was in line to join! It is this sort of complete and utter misunderstanding of the world that leads to complete and utter misunderstanding of the EU.

 

The average monthly wage in any of the countries near the EU, or indeed that might be near joining the EU have a monthly average income of well over 500£, not only that, if they moved here for work, they are unlikely to commute. In other words, they would have the same sort of expenses as you and me.

 

But hey, "they" aspire to own a bicycle, so "they" are clearly intent on coming here..

 

 

 

Don't deflect, what is racist about what you said is this:

 

"Yes, it's the race of migrants that makes them useless"

 

Try and deny that is racist and I might have to pay for a GCSE in English.

 

Moldova is on the accession list and £200 a month is serious wedge there. Average wage is less than €150 a month.

[I1L2T3]

I understand that, but you missed the point I was making. The Swiss were free to make their own choice, and that freedom came from not being a member state of EU. There is also an issue many fail to grasp and/or understand, and that point being that there exists a major difference between immigration and mass uncontrolled immigration. then we have the trade issue to consider. Do you seriously believe that EU member states like Germany, France, Italy, etc would cease to trade with UK should it leave the block? This argument is nonsense. We can add what Juncker for EU stated to global population that without free movement what is the point of being a member of Eurozone. I would also point out that the USA, China, Japan, etc are not EU member states but trade with EU, and note that even a small country like Iceland has even made its own trade deal with China. To even imply the UK could not do the same or better is also nonsense.

 

You are missing the point that despite what the Swiss people voted for in the referendum they can't have it if they want access to the single market as well.

 

The warning signs are there for you, in bright flashing neon lights.

[999tigger]

, but Europe is not the EU. .

 

Why do you keep pushing this point? I get the impression that you think countries outside the EU, but in Europe offer some untapped viable alternative.

 

The important countries of Europe are already in the EU. There are two additions namely Norway and Switzerland who get to trade in the EEA, but dont have any influence on decisions.

 

 

The rest of the countries appear to be.

 

 

Turkey: 14 April 1987;

The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: 22 March 2004;

Montenegro: 15 December 2008;

Albania: 24 April 2009;

Iceland: 16 July 2009;

Serbia: 22 December 2009.

 

Whcih leaves

 

Andorra

Belarus

Bosnia-Herzegovina

Guernsey

Liechtenstein

Moldova

Monaco

Russia

San Marino

Ukraine

Vatican City