Zamo Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Switzerland and Norway are not part of the EU but ARE part of the Schengen area. Open borders are one of the conditions of their access to the single market. If we left we could be forced down the same route. Only 'could' now? Open borders will obviously not be something the UK would sign up to and therefore would not form part of any trade agreement. The notion that this would be a deal break is pure nonsense. Not having a trade deal would hurt the EU as well as the UK and the idea that the EU would dig it's heals in over open borders, cut off trade and lay siege to the UK is fantasy... it would effectively be a declaration of war. You've fallen for scaremongering spin I1L2T3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) It's not scaremongering to ask difficult questions. The Brexit campaigns are going to need to get some kind of an economic plan together. Right now they don't have one. One of the reasons is they know the British public aren't going to like what they hear. We already did this, but I will say it again for you, I agree that asking questions isn't scaremongering, scaremongering is when you spread rumours of disaster and that is what you have been doing along with the other out campaigners. Have you noticed the new key word for everyone being interviewed from the in champaign, I think they are having a competition with each other to see who can say "safer in" the most times whilst being interviewed. The out campaign doesn't need an economic plan, economic plans are the responsibility of the elected government and each party will present a different plan to the electorate when its time to vote in a new government. Edited February 22, 2016 by sutty27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Only 'could' now? Open borders will obviously not be something the UK would sign up to and therefore would not form part of any trade agreement. The notion that this would be a deal break is pure nonsense. Not having a trade deal would hurt the EU as well as the UK and the idea that the EU would dig it's heals in over open borders, cut off trade and lay siege to the UK is fantasy... it would effectively be a declaration of war. You've fallen for scaremongering spin I1L2T3. As I said earlier it's not scaremongering. These are questions we should have answers to and they shouldn't just be dismissed. I know the 'scaremongering' response is going to be a pretty standard one from the leave campaign but the fact remains they are not addressing the issues. I read the websites of both the main leave campaigns and to say they are muddled would be an understatement. No clear plans. No clear details of how we would trade No economic forecasts. No research. No costings. I want them to deliver something I can think through because as I posted a few pages ago I'm 60:40 for staying in but certainly not one of the people who will blindly voting to stay if there is a better alternative. I need to be persuaded. ---------- Post added 22-02-2016 at 09:10 ---------- We already did this, but I will say it again for you, I agree that asking questions isn't scaremongering, scaremongering is when you spread rumours of disaster and that is what you have been doing along with the other out campaigners. Have you noticed the new key word for everyone being interviewed from the in champaign, I think they are having a competition with each other to see who can say "safer in" the most times whilst being interviewed. The out campaign doesn't need an economic plan, economic plans are the responsibility of the elected government and each party will present a different plan to the electorate when its time to vote in a new government. Yes you absolutely do need an economic plan. You need to tell people how we will trade, how it will affect their standard of living, whether it will impact their jobs etc... You are asking people to vote for radical changes so you need to be clear what the changes will be and how they are going to impact people. There is no escaping that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 As I said earlier it's not scaremongering. These are questions we should have answers to and they shouldn't just be dismissed. I know the 'scaremongering' response is going to be a pretty standard one from the leave campaign but the fact remains they are not addressing the issues. I read the websites of both the main leave campaigns and to say they are muddled would be an understatement. No clear plans. No clear details of how we would trade No economic forecasts. No research. No costings. I want them to deliver something I can think through because as I posted a few pages ago I'm 60:40 for staying in but certainly not one of the people who will blindly voting to stay if there is a better alternative. I need to be persuaded. What you want isn't possible because the out campaign aren't in power so won't be in a position to formulate economic plans or negotiate trade deals with the EU. That will be the job of the elected government and if they do a crap job we the electorate will be able to elect a different government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 No clear details of how we would trade. You keep saying this but you're not understanding that the UK will trade perfectly well outside the EU, just as it does right now and for the last few thousand years. We don't trade. It isn't the UK or the EU that trades. Individual businesses trade with each other and they will carry on doing that without being in the EU. There are lots of reasons to stay in, but fear mongering about trade isn't one of them. You've bought this trade thing hook line and sinker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Yes you absolutely do need an economic plan. You need to tell people how we will trade, how it will affect their standard of living, whether it will impact their jobs etc... You are asking people to vote for radical changes so you need to be clear what the changes will be and how they are going to impact people. There is no escaping that. We have told you but you don't believe us and just like you we can't prove what we say, you either trust that the UK can function and prosper without the constraints of the EU or you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Have you noticed the new key word for everyone being interviewed from the in champaign, I think they are having a competition with each other to see who can say "safer in" the most times whilst being interviewed. I haven't fully made up my mind around that claim to be honest but I do understand the points about losing our Schengen opt-out and less cooperation between police agencies if we leave Why do you think we would be safer out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutch Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Moving back to a world where we can pollute as much as we want, make people work for peanuts in unsafe environments. Give companies and banks the freedom to abuse their powers in the market. Lets go back to wild wild west and have a good ride. Many of these EU rules are for human protection, consumer rights. I know who wants to get rid of these rules and why, but they tell you it is all to make your life better more free and happy. EU is the captain of the ship but Thatcher and Cameron like to take over control and tell the captain what way to go (the benefits are only a 30Milion issue and understood by EU colleagues). If England wants to be captain of its own boat it can go any way it wants on its adventure and choose its own speed and direction. A little boat can often go faster and change direction easier, it is a bit more rocky and could perform miracles but also suddenly disappear. Now Cameron prefers to stay in the big boat, almost scared and frightened to get in the little one. I reckon he don't know how to sail in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 What you want isn't possible because the out campaign aren't in power so won't be in a position to formulate economic plans or negotiate trade deals with the EU. That will be the job of the elected government and if they do a crap job we the electorate will be able to elect a different government. It clearly is possible. The campaigns could commission academic research into the economic impacts of the various possible models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalga Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 You might have missed that open EU borders are being eliminated since the Paris attacks, and as the UK has never been part of Schengen you need to make a better case throwing open UK borders when Schengen is being dismantled. Duncan Smiths claim that it's more dangerous to remain in the EU is nonsense then,if the borders are coming back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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