What should a British Muslim do?

[Zamo]

God gave us a brain to realise the context in which the passages in the Qur'an were written.

 

The evidence is this hasn't worked. How do you explain an infallible god messing up so badly? Perhaps it's time for Muslims to consider the truth before them... The Koran is clearly the work of fallible man.

 

You claimed that moderate Islam didn't exist. That's not true is it.

 

You have to resort to the individual level to support your case but Islam is not an individual. The fact that individual Muslims can live peacefully does not prove the religion is peaceful and moderate. The truth is that Islam suffers from a grossly disproportionate level of intolerant violent extremism. All members of the Islamic club share responsibility for that regardless of individual conduct because they sustain and perpetuate it.

 

All Muslims will be blamed if they do not collectively get to grips with the extremism problem. It is irrelevant whether ou think it is unfair because it is the reality. Advising Muslims to ignore the reality because you don't like it will not stop them suffering it. You do them a disservice.

 

No, they're not responsible for the behaviour of other people unless those people report to them. And then they can only be responsible if aware of the behaviour or if they should be aware of it.

I don't hold every member of the met responsible for the behaviour of every other member, that would be ridiculous.

 

You're back to debating at the individual level. The fact that you and others will not collectively blame or retaliate is irrelevant. The reality in this world is that people will and when they do things will quickly escalate and drag more and more people in.

 

When Rodney King was beaten up I dare say many didn't blame all police but that didn't stop indiscriminate blame and reprisals against members of the police.

 

The reality is Muslims will be collectively blamed and reprisals will be indiscriminate unless they reverse an extremism problem that is getting worse. Fair has nothing to do with it... it's the reality.

 

Do you believe that all Muslims actually want to kill all non Muslims? Seriously.

 

Do you think that argument will stop collective blame and reprisals if the extremism isn't tackled? Seriously.

 

I know for a fact that moderate Muslims exist. I work with them on a daily basis.

 

Moderate individuals do not evidence a moderate collective. Islam has a seriously disproportionate problem with intolerant and violent extremism. It hasn't universally infected all Muslims and Islam doesn't have a monopoly on the problem but, seriously, so what? The problem is none-the-less unacceptable and Muslims will be on the receiving end of collective blame and reprisals unless they do something about it. Sticking your head in the sand is not going to spare Muslims from the reality of how our species will act.

[Cyclone]

As if the individual level is somehow not the key to everything. Suicide bombers are individuals, and the vast majority of normal, peaceful Muslims are individuals.

Clearly this argument won't work for some people, because you and a few other posters here seem to be convinced that Muslims have a collective responsibility for the behaviour of a few individuals. I disagree.

[Berberis]

Errr, right... Godwins law. We win.

 

Thats a rather juvenile response. "I win, you quoted the nazis, I win". If you think this conversation is about you imposing your opinion on others in order to facilitate a "win", you couldn't be more wrong.

 

But you believed that they wanted to kill you did you?

 

You said that not me. I said the Muslims have to accept their holy book is not infallible.

 

No, you've said not. So now you DO believe in moderate Islam. Do you even know what you think?

 

Your'e again misrepresenting what I have said here. I didn't say either way. I asked a question about how you and others consider moderate islam at the same time as their supposed holy book calls for the killing of none muslims, the execution of people who leave the faith and the killing of homosexuals. Not to mention the freedom to enslave and prohibit basic human rights to women.

 

How can people who defend this book be considered moderate Cyclone?

[Eater Sundae]

As if the individual level is somehow not the key to everything. Suicide bombers are individuals, and the vast majority of normal, peaceful Muslims are individuals.

Clearly this argument won't work for some people, because you and a few other posters here seem to be convinced that Muslims have a collective responsibility for the behaviour of a few individuals. I disagree.

 

As I see it, regardless of the vast majority of UK based Muslims being peaceful people just wanting to get on with their lives, there are still enough who are demonstrating that they have a very different outlook on life to cause some concern.

 

However, these people cannot be singled out and identified until they act. Up until then, they look just like any other Muslim. However, the fact that they do look like any other Muslim, and that Muslims are, to a great extent identifiable by the way they dress and where they live and congregate, they are all lumped together.

 

Acts by a few will breed distrust of the whole, further alienating Muslims in society, and further highlighting differences between Muslims and the (non-Muslim) majority. The more young Muslims feel alienated by the society in which they live, then the more likely it is that some will be attracted by the offer of a true Muslim based society somewhere else.

 

Further alienation of young British Musims will play into the hands of IS, as will anything that drives a wedge between British Muslims and the rest of the British people. IS don't want British Muslims to be a part of British society, they want them to be persecuted and so show Britain to be an evil country.

[loraward]

As if the individual level is somehow not the key to everything. Suicide bombers are individuals, and the vast majority of normal, peaceful Muslims are individuals.

Clearly this argument won't work for some people, because you and a few other posters here seem to be convinced that Muslims have a collective responsibility for the behaviour of a few individuals. I disagree.

 

The God they worship and the man they revere make them a collective group, meaning they either denounce the word of their God and the actions of the man they revere or be reviled along with their God and founder.

[Zamo]

As if the individual level is somehow not the key to everything. Suicide bombers are individuals, and the vast majority of normal, peaceful Muslims are individuals.

Clearly this argument won't work for some people, because you and a few other posters here seem to be convinced that Muslims have a collective responsibility for the behaviour of a few individuals. I disagree.

 

You miss the point. You may disagree and disapprove of collective blame but that doesn't mean Muslims aren't facing it.

 

The OP question was what should British muslims do. The answer is not to do what is necessary to satisfy people like you (i.e. nothing) because that won't stop blame and retaliation from others. Like it or not Muslims must tackle their extremism problem or they will eventually find themselves on the receiving end of collective punishment... it is what people do. Advising people on a course of action that ignores the reality in favour of what you'd like to happen is not good advice.

[Chris_Sleeps]

The OP question was what should British muslims do. The answer is not to do what is necessary to satisfy people like you (i.e. nothing) because that won't stop blame and retaliation from others.

Your logic also leads to another dead route - convert from Islam. Quit it. Leave it behind. It'll appease everyone who hates Islam, and thus it is good advice. It ignores their fundamental right to follow a religion without being persecuted for it - but it's still damn good advice.

[loraward]

Your logic also leads to another dead route - convert from Islam. Quit it. Leave it behind. It'll appease everyone who hates Islam, and thus it is good advice. It ignores their fundamental right to follow a religion without being persecuted for it - but it's still damn good advice.

 

Why should anyone be expected to tolerate a group of people who's published literature calls for the killing of people not in their group. Would we tolerate a group that published literature with the words kill all black people were ever you find them, Kill all Muslims were ever you find them, kill all white people wherever you find them?

[cassity]

'Muslim' threads are doing very well on the general SF charts at mo.

[Chris_Sleeps]

Why should anyone be expected to tolerate a group of people who's published literature calls for the killing of people not in their group.

Burn em!!

They're evil!!!

Hang em up and flog em!!!

 

Or ... wait until they break the law and arrest them and charge them. Try them in a court of law for the crimes they've broken, and not the books they read. Maybe.