What should a British Muslim do?

[loraward]

Because He made (presumably) sentient beings who are (hopefully/normally) capable of rational thinking, not automata.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2015 at 22:52 ----------

 

 

To which I have suggested an answer. Does it actually matter who answered?

 

So you can if you wish choose to ignore it all without consequence, the more rational you are the more likley you are to ignore it all, a little more rational thinking on your part and you can join the non believer club.

 

It still begs the question, what is the point of the book if it expected everyone to think for themselves?

[Halibut]

I asked this back in post #144 in reply to Mafya but didn't get a reply:

 

'Then should we consider those who take the passages in the Qur'an - all of them, or at least those that promote violence above those that promote love - to extremes, to be mentally incapable of taking them in the context they were written?'

 

I'm not trying to troll, it's a genuine question. I'm sure if I killed someone in the name of God without any remorse I'd be consigned to an institution.

 

I appreciate that you're asking the question with a genuine and un-trollish quest for understanding. I'm not Muslim, but (lapsed) Catholic.

 

My answer is that those who fillet out the dodgy parts of the Qur'an, or the Bible ( e.g. the Westboro'to Baptists) to attempt to justify hatred and killing are not neccesarily mentally ill, but that they're clearly damaged and inadequate people. And yes they are, as are so many contributors to this thread, unable to understand the context of the times in which they were written, even less so of seeing the bigger picture.

I'm acutely aware that in both Bible and Qu'ran there are passages which to most people today appear abhorrent, also acutely aware that both books can and should be read as a message of love, tolerance and responsibility towards each other.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2015 at 23:10 ----------

 

So you can if you wish choose to ignore it all without consequence, the more rational you are the more likley you are to ignore it all, a little more rational thinking on your part and you can join the non believer club.

 

It still begs the question, what is the point of the book if it expected everyone to think for themselves?

 

I think that's both a false and a foolish statement. Is it rational to ignore Jesus's instruction to love your neighbour as yourself?

Are the ten commandments to be thrown out in the cause of rationalism?

 

In response to your final point - 'what's the point of the book...' - I thinks it's further evidence that you aren't a skilled thinker and lack both knowledge and intellectual prowess. I haven't really got the time right now, but maybe you could join a library or the Open University or something and open up your horizons and thinking skills a bit.

[the_bloke]

To which I have suggested an answer. Does it actually matter who answered?

 

Sorry, I didn't see an answer, just discussion about pork.

 

I appreciate that you're asking the question with a genuine and un-trollish quest for understanding. I'm not Muslim, but (lapsed) Catholic.

 

My answer is that those who fillet out the dodgy parts of the Qur'an, or the Bible ( e.g. the Westboro'to Baptists) to attempt to justify hatred and killing are not neccesarily mentally ill, but that they're clearly damaged and inadequate people. And yes they are, as are so many contributors to this thread, unable to understand the context of the times in which they were written, even less so of seeing the bigger picture.

I'm acutely aware that in both Bible and Qu'ran there are passages which to most people today appear abhorrent, also acutely aware that both books can and should be read as a message of love, tolerance and responsibility towards each other.

 

.. and thank you for a proper answer

[mafya]

I don't suppose the parents of the 17 year old who recently blew himself up in Iraq wanted or anticipated that as his future but, intentional or not, it is the future they gifted him through their nurturing.

 

Islamic culture produces a disproportionate level of extremism and as such those who support and perpetuate it have responsibility for it. Muslims need to take a long hard look at themselves and ask why so many of their young embrace extremism. They need to do this for the sake of their children and for the sake of their own place in British society.

 

Islamic culture doesn't produce extremism, extremist are people who take things to the extreme.

I have my place in British society because I was born here and get on with my life without committing acts of terrorism.

Who the hell are you or anyone to demand that Muslims should do this or do that?

Live your own life and let us live ours, i don't ask all non Muslims people to apologise for the racism I suffer from non Muslims so who the hell do you think you are saying us Muslims need to do more otherwise things are going to turn against us?

[loraward]

I appreciate that you're asking the question with a genuine and un-trollish quest for understanding. I'm not Muslim, but (lapsed) Catholic.

 

My answer is that those who fillet out the dodgy parts of the Qur'an, or the Bible ( e.g. the Westboro'to Baptists) to attempt to justify hatred and killing are not neccesarily mentally ill, but that they're clearly damaged and inadequate people. And yes they are, as are so many contributors to this thread, unable to understand the context of the times in which they were written, even less so of seeing the bigger picture.

I'm acutely aware that in both Bible and Qu'ran there are passages which to most people today appear abhorrent, also acutely aware that both books can and should be read as a message of love, tolerance and responsibility towards each other.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2015 at 23:10 ----------

 

 

I think that's both a false and a foolish statement. Is it rational to ignore Jesus's instruction to love your neighbour as yourself?

Are the ten commandments to be thrown out in the cause of rationalism?

 

In response to your final point - 'what's the point of the book...' - I thinks it's further evidence that you aren't a skilled thinker and lack both knowledge and intellectual prowess. I haven't really got the time right now, but maybe you could join a library or the Open University or something and open up your horizons and thinking skills a bit.

 

You are clearly lacking the ability to think rationally, if it irrational to adhere one part of the book then it must be irrational to adhere any of it.

 

If God does exist and the book is the word of God then it also irrational to ignore its words.

 

If God exists and did create everyone then its irrational to condemn the people that follow the violent parts just because you think they are clearly damaged and inadequate people, they are how they was created.

 

So either God doesn't exist and everyone that believes it does is irrational, or God does exist and everyone is how God intended them to be.

 

---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 07:02 ----------

 

Islamic culture doesn't produce extremism, extremist are people who take things to the extreme.

I have my place in British society because I was born here and get on with my life without committing acts of terrorism.

Who the hell are you or anyone to demand that Muslims should do this or do that?

Live your own life and let us live ours, i don't ask all non Muslims people to apologise for the racism I suffer from non Muslims so who the hell do you think you are saying us Muslims need to do more otherwise things are going to turn against us?

 

Zamo just appears to me to be a rational person and is only explaining what is inevitable.

 

From your point of view Zamo was created by God and is only saying what God must have known he would say. Maybe God sent Zamo to test your faith.

 

---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 07:10 ----------

 

In this response, you display a reasonably well thought out approach to a point.

 

 

 

And in this one, you come across as staggeringly naive and ill educated.

 

Just because you lack the ability to understand something doesn't mean it is staggeringly naive and ill educated. It just means it is behold your capacity to comprehend and isn't normal for different people to have a different level of comprehension, its a consequence of our creation or evolution.

 

---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 07:15 ----------

 

I'm acutely aware that in both Bible and Qu'ran there are passages which to most people today appear abhorrent, also acutely aware that both books can and should be read as a message of love, tolerance and responsibility towards each other.

 

So Gods words are abhorrent to most right thinking people, that pegs the question, why do so many people worship it?

Edited June 19, 2015 by loraward

[Zamo]

Islamic culture doesn't produce extremism, extremist are people who take things to the extreme.

I have my place in British society because I was born here and get on with my life without committing acts of terrorism.

Who the hell are you or anyone to demand that Muslims should do this or do that?

Live your own life and let us live ours, i don't ask all non Muslims people to apologise for the racism I suffer from non Muslims so who the hell do you think you are saying us Muslims need to do more otherwise things are going to turn against us?

 

Talk about in denial. How can you not recognise that Muslim culture has a problem with extremism? You seem to be of the opinion that beliefs and practices are not extreme until someone is picking up a gun or blowing people up... think again.

 

Extremism is thinking and treating women as inferior. It's thinking homosexuality is evil. It's thinking there is a god that gives a crap whether you have a beard and is so egocentric he requires you to worship him 5 times a day. You might be able to follow this nonsense with the constraints of what's legal but it is still extreme. And from this extremist platform that you bestow on your children, too many then take an extra step or two onto the extremely extreme terrorist supporting path. At least 700 gone to Syria and Iraq this year, many more stopped from going and undoubtedly thousands toying with the idea. Such levels of nurtured enduced madness is currently unique to Muslim culture and that's the responsibility of all Muslims.

 

I'd like to accept a deal where I let you get on with your life and I with mine. We can do that when the threat from you community subsides, we aren't spending billions policing your problems and aren't having freedoms eroded in the name of security from your problems. Non-Muslims are currently paying a heavy price for your religious and cultural choices and that makes our business our business.

 

I don't threaten reprisals but warn they at inevitable... it is what people do. You seem to think the non-Muslim British have lost the stomach for a fight and that would be a dangerous assumption. The British are up there with the most tolerant in the world but there will be a snapping point and extremists from within your own community are pushing for it. If it comes then you'll have left it to late.

 

Muslims must tone down 'normal' and move away from the extreme. Get on with it.

[Cyclone]

It's thinking there is a god that gives a crap whether you have a beard and is so egocentric he requires you to worship him 5 times a day. You might be able to follow this nonsense with the constraints of what's legal but it is still extreme.

 

Well you've just redefined extremism to suit your own prejudices haven't you.

[Zamo]

Well you've just redefined extremism to suit your own prejudices haven't you.

 

I'm not prejudging... just judging.

 

Yes, I think what Muslims teach their young is extreme and the fact that so many stray into violent extremism supports that judgement. Of course it is subjective... how do you define extreme?

[Flanker7]

I think that 'Zamo' has 'mafya' well on the run on this.

 

Mafya's usual logic seems to have been derailed. Not like him to say things like "bend over and take it" and "who the hell are you to tell (Muslims)" - which was a strawman by the way Zamo didn't tell any one to do anything just warned of his fears and possible consequences. Mind you the op did ask for opinion.

 

What should a British Muslim do?

 

The rest of the pedants ranting on about the Qur'an, Bible and Jewish Bible are just wasting their, and our, time. imo

[L00b]

Well you've just redefined extremism to suit your own prejudices haven't you.

Is it prejudice, though, or just casual observance (and/or) a flippant remark?

 

I don't often agree with Zamo, but he is right in substance about the issue of the British Muslim population at large having a vested interest in both putting a bit more order in their house where and how possible, and toning down the more retrograde aspects of their religion where required.

 

And you'll find me saying the exact same for any other highly-prescriptive faith (e.g. ultra-orthodox Judaism), the adherence to which guides and rules followers' behaviour and way of life in everyday society, and fosters division rather than integration.