What should a British Muslim do?

[Cyclone]

It certainly doesn't appear to be flippant or casual. He's bee defending his point of view for 17 pages now, and he's determined that every Muslim is responsible for the behaviour of a few, whilst also determined that this standard isn't applied to any other group.

[sgtkate]

I asked this back in post #144 in reply to Mafya but didn't get a reply:

 

'Then should we consider those who take the passages in the Qur'an - all of them, or at least those that promote violence above those that promote love - to extremes, to be mentally incapable of taking them in the context they were written?'

 

I'm not trying to troll, it's a genuine question. I'm sure if I killed someone in the name of God without any remorse I'd be consigned to an institution.

 

Yes I'd hope you would be, as would any Christian, Muslim or Jews who tried to use that as that defence. No-one on here (I seriously hope!) is defending extremists or arguing that following ancient texts word for word isn't both ridiculous and impossible due to conflicting advice in the same texts. What I think the vast majority of people are saying with defence to muslims is that they are just like Christians who ignore whole swathes of the Bible to focus on the stuff that applies to modern life and ignore all the bits that focus on death, rape and bile.

 

It is a concern that more muslims seem to be defecting to those who do take ALL of the Quran literally and perhaps we should try to work out why and what we can do to stop it, but at the same time accept that most muslims in the UK and overseas do not follow these beliefs and just want to get on with their lives without harassment or having to apologise for things done on the other side of the world who they have no connection to.

 

---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 10:50 ----------

 

So you can if you wish choose to ignore it all without consequence, the more rational you are the more likley you are to ignore it all, a little more rational thinking on your part and you can join the non believer club.

 

It still begs the question, what is the point of the book if it expected everyone to think for themselves?

 

And again, so why are there so many Christians? If they can ignore whole swathes of their own holy word of God book then why do they continue to follow the rest of it?

 

---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 10:53 ----------

 

You are clearly lacking the ability to think rationally, if it irrational to adhere one part of the book then it must be irrational to adhere any of it.

 

If God does exist and the book is the word of God then it also irrational to ignore its words.

 

If God exists and did create everyone then its irrational to condemn the people that follow the violent parts just because you think they are clearly damaged and inadequate people, they are how they was created.

 

So either God doesn't exist and everyone that believes it does is irrational, or God does exist and everyone is how God intended them to be

 

Only thing we agree on

Edited June 19, 2015 by sgtkate

[L00b]

It is a concern that more muslims seem to be defecting to those who do take ALL of the Quran literally and perhaps we should try to work out why and what we can do to stop it, but at the same time accept that most muslims in the UK and overseas do not follow these beliefs and just want to get on with their lives without harassment or having to apologise for things done on the other side of the world who they have no connection to.

That's precisely where the argument falls (at least in part), though.

 

"Things" don't just happen on the other side of the world, haven't for a good while. Recruiting networks across Western Europe demonstrate so, as do the multitude of terrorist acts prevented for the past x years (and associated convictions) and those that unfortunately get through the police and intelligence net. To say nothing of the encroachment on individual liberties that runs hand-in-hand.

 

I'm not laying it all at the feet of the Muslim population, far from it. But as the problem here is mostly within that community here, what more that community could take upon itself (in terms of providing more intel etc. if, as and when receiving or becoming aware of relevant information, etc.) is what more might not be taken from everybody else, including that community, in the name of prevention. All the while mitigating the pernicious effect which massmedia and people with an agenda are having on (most-) everybody else against that community over time.

 

The exact same issue exists, and IMHO is worsening (for Muslim communities which demand nothing more than to be left in peace) most anywhere else you care to take a look: Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands, etc.

 

Don't be fooled: these 'recruits' don't take themselves to Syria via Turkey or wherever else by their lone or grouped selves, there are vast recruiting and passing networks in Western Europe. All well (...as well as can be from what intel eventually makes it to investigative journos) and long documented in the continental press. They should be as prioritised a target as terrorist cells, they do just as much damage to Muslim communities over time as a terrorist incident à la Charlie Hebdo.

Edited June 19, 2015 by L00b

[loraward]

 

And again, so why are there so many Christians? If they can ignore whole swathes of their own holy word of God book then why do they continue to follow the rest of it?

 

Only thing we agree on

 

Because the world is full of irrational people and the Bible isn't claimed to be the word of God.

[sgtkate]

That's precisely where the argument falls (at least in part), though.

 

"Things" don't just happen on the other side of the world, haven't for a good while. Recruiting networks across Western Europe demonstrate so, as do the multitude of terrorist acts prevented for the past x years (and associated convictions) and those that unfortunately get through the police and intelligence net. To say nothing of the encroachment on individual liberties that runs hand-in-hand.

 

I'm not laying it all at the feet of the Muslim population, far from it. But as the problem here is mostly within that community here, what more that community could take upon itself (in terms of providing more intel etc. if, as and when receiving or becoming aware of relevant information, etc.) is what more might not be taken from everybody else, including that community, in the name of prevention. All the while mitigating the pernicious effect which massmedia and people with an agenda are having on (most-) everybody else against that community over time.

 

The exact same issue exists, and IMHO is worsening (for Muslim communities which demand nothing more than to be left in peace) most anywhere else you care to take a look: Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands, etc.

 

Don't be fooled: these 'recruits' don't take themselves to Syria via Turkey by their lone or grouped selves, there are vast recruiting and passing networks in Western Europe. All well (...as well as can be from what intel eventually makes it to investigative journos) and long documented in the continental press.

 

I understand your point, but if we are going to start taking blame for things, then lets look at ourselves first shall we? Supported numerous regimes in the Middle East that were known supporters or extreme forms of Islam. Support Saddam Hussain while he wasn't a threat to us (just everyone near him) then decided to go against him when we thought he might have been a threat and created huge instability in the region and a power vacuum. Refusing to end our 'special relationship' with the Saudis even those they are part funding ISIS. Need I go on? And before anyone says well I was against all those things...well so are the majority of the Muslims you seem more than happy to condemn.

 

---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 11:09 ----------

 

Because the world is full of irrational people and the Bible isn't claimed to be the word of God.

 

Yes, yes it is. The Old Testament is said to be the word of God at least twice in the New Testament. I'm not posting it again.

[loraward]

 

Yes, yes it is. The Old Testament is said to be the word of God at least twice in the New Testament. I'm not posting it again.

 

Christianity

The religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

So not based on the old testament.

 

How many of the worlds Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God, how many claim that it was dictated by God, how many claim that it is unchanged?

 

It's well understood that the New Testament was written by more than one man over many centuries.

[L00b]

I understand your point, but if we are going to start taking blame for things, then lets look at ourselves first shall we?

I don't play the blame game, I'm just interested in solutions to problems.

Supported numerous regimes in the Middle East that were known supporters or extreme forms of Islam. Support Saddam Hussain while he wasn't a threat to us (just everyone near him) then decided to go against him when we thought he might have been a threat and created huge instability in the region and a power vacuum. Refusing to end our 'special relationship' with the Saudis even those they are part funding ISIS. Need I go on? And before anyone says well I was against all those things...

Indeed I have long been against those things, before they happened, on purely logical and realism grounds alone. But those things are not the topic of the thread. The British Muslim community is.

 

I'm just being logical in here: the Muslim community is being increasingly, insidiously, steadfastly finger-pointed, just the same as immigrants were long increasingly, insidiously, steadfastly finger-pointed. As an immigrant myself, I should know. Now, how long has this Bradford family of 12 been headline news ? 5 days? Do you think that level of exposure is normal and proportional?

 

Immigrants are fair game across the political spectrum, including Labour, and little in the way of dissenting voices these days. How long do you think until the Muslim community at large becomes fair game? Heard Mr Cameron today?

 

They've got to start helping themselves more, because no one else is going to do it for them, to an extent sufficient to mute the negative influence which media is having. Otherwise, once public opinion has reached a tipping point, politicos will not waste a second siding with public opinion and throwing the gloves off. You know as well as I do, and anyone else with half a brain, how it works.

Well so are the majority of the Muslims you seem more than happy to condemn.

I have not condemned Muslims at all, just appealed to their volunteering more efforts, in view of their 'first-hand' place and knowledge of the domestic issue, for preserving our society and their place within it. So, I would welcome your retraction. Edited June 19, 2015 by L00b

[sgtkate]

I don't play the blame game, I'm just interested in solutions to problems.

Indeed I have long been against those things, before they happened, on purely logical and realism grounds alone. But those things are not the topic of the thread. The British Muslim community is.

 

I'm just being logical in here: the Muslim community is being increasingly, insidiously, steadfastly finger-pointed, just the same as immigrants were long increasingly, insidiously, steadfastly finger-pointed. As an immigrant myself, I should know. Now, how long has this Bradford family of 12 been headline news ? 5 days? Do you think that level of exposure is normal and proportional?

 

Immigrants are fair game across the political spectrum, including Labour, and little in the way of dissenting voices these days. How long do you think until the Muslim community at large becomes fair game? Heard Mr Cameron today?

 

They've got to start helping themselves more, because no one else is going to do it for them, to an extent sufficient to mute the negative influence which media is having. Otherwise, once public opinion has reached a tipping point, politicos will not waste a second siding with public opinion and throwing the gloves off. You know as well as I do, and anyone else with half a brain, how it works.

I have not condemned Muslims at all, just appealed to their volunteering more efforts, in view of their 'first-hand' place and knowledge of the domestic issue, for preserving our society and their place within it. So, I would welcome your retraction.

 

The last line was more of an open point to majority of posters on this thread and not directly to you. Apologies that wasn't clearer.

 

---------- Post added 19-06-2015 at 11:48 ----------

 

Christianity

The religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

So not based on the old testament.

 

How many of the worlds Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God, how many claim that it was dictated by God, how many claim that it is unchanged?

 

It's well understood that the New Testament was written by more than one man over many centuries.

 

We are going to have to leave this one here as we clearly don't agree and are going around in circles. Just do this for me, go and find a vicar or a priest and ask them if they believe the Old Testament is a) the word of God and b) if it's a part of Christianity and come back with the answers. I expect you to get variations of answers to question a and 100% the same answer to question b.

[loraward]

We are going to have to leave this one here as we clearly don't agree and are going around in circles. Just do this for me, go and find a vicar or a priest and ask them if they believe the Old Testament is a) the word of God and b) if it's a part of Christianity and come back with the answers. I expect you to get variations of answers to question a and 100% the same answer to question b.

 

I knew a vicar that didn't believe in God, and many more that were hypocrites, I was brought up by Christian parents, I was Christened, went to Sunday school and was confirmed. I know what its like to have religion forced onto you.

[ssshh]

Why should anyone apologise for someone else that's just ridiculous