What should a British Muslim do?

[unbeliever]

I said it could happen. Islam can reform itself - that is what we are going through. The Islamic Reformation. As little girls in Pakistan decide that they want to go to school, and young men in Egypt decide that they don't want to be told what to do by daft muftis. This it it. The other side of that is that other young men decide that they want war, and murder, for Allah. They want to build a new caliphate. It's all part of the same storm.

 

I know. You're not going to portray me as some apologist. If a man wants to push his religion on other people against their will, then he is my enemy. I'm not a fool. I don't believe in God, or Allah, or Vishnu, and it's my fundamental right to live my life without that.

 

I spoke out against the Islamic Society at Sheffield Hallam here. You're not teaching me anything new.

 

What's your long-term view? Do you think the problem of people killing for this religion is going away?

 

The other Abrahamic religions have been through a reformation, but not Islam.

The Quran can't be edited as it is "The final and unalterable word of god". That's part of the problem with it. I don't really think editing is viable.

Much can be achieved in my view by supporting moderate Islamic teachers. Christianity became pacified not really because the text was changed, but because the high priests stopped telling their followers to focus on the nasty bits and directed them to the nicer bits.

Any religious text is a huge jumble of ideas. The members of the religion mostly focus on what the preachers tell them to.

[Zamo]

So does that mean that in the spirit of this thread, all Christians are responsible for the behaviour of the KKK and abortion clinic bombing extremists?

 

We don't have any of the problems you refer to in this country so how to you blame a group for a no existent problem?

 

There are of course nutjobs who can attach themselves to any group and for that it is less reasonable to pin blame on the group because what can they do to stop it? The problem for Muslims is that the root cause of the extremism isn't an underlying mental health issue but a nurturing issue. That is something they can and must address.

[Chris_Sleeps]

We must not just accept it or to use 'mafya's' turn of phrase - "just bend over and take it!"

Nor should we make every Muslim an enemy, guilty by default. The staff in Tunisia who attempted to save the holidaymakers are just as much part of Islam as the gunman.

[unbeliever]

Is this version of the Koran inaccurate.

 

http://quran.com/5/32

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

 

http://quran.com/5/33

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

 

http://quran.com/5/35

Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

 

http://quran.com/5/36

Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment

 

 

 

 

Its reads to me that killing a non believer is entirely justified.

 

 

 

If this version of the Koran isn't accurate would you be kind enough to post a link to the one used by British Muslims.

 

In Exodus 12:29, God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.

In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.

In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.”

In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children.

In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan.

In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. Sound familiar?

In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.

In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.

In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them.

In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.

In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.

In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.

In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods. Sound familiar?

 

I could go on.

 

In case it's not obvious, these are from the Bible/Torah.

Edited July 1, 2015 by unbeliever

[cuttsie]

In Exodus 12:29, God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.

In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.

In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.”

In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children.

In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan.

In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. Sound familiar?

In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.

In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.

In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them.

In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.

In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.

In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.

In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods. Sound familiar?

 

I could go on.

 

In case it's not obvious, these are from the Bible/Torah.

 

Does any person who follows any religion ever sit back and think what a load of crap has been written by these silly sods that lived thousands of years ago .

The bible and koran and all the rest of the so called fairy stories are so daft that only imbeciles would take any notice what so ever of them:loopy:

May your gods go with you.

[unbeliever]

Does any person who follows any religion ever sit back and think what a load of crap has been written by these silly sods that lived thousands of years ago .

The bible and koran and all the rest of the so called fairy stories are so daft that only imbeciles would take any notice what so ever of them:loopy:

 

I wouldn't put it so strongly myself. Theists are general harmless unless they are directed to the really nasty bits of their religion's text. It's the preachers which are really the problem.

My point was that anybody can play the game of picking nasty bits out of a religious text and inferring that those who follow that creed are bad people.

[sci fi]

They should only apologize if they believe that the "terrorists" are doing a great job. If they want to join the forces of Isis etc or if they are in the line to abuse children.

Obviously, any of the above traits would mean they would not apologise for the actions.

 

Innocent Muslims should not be made to apologize for the bad ones. As I would not feel I should apologize for the rape of pre-european America, or for the atrocities that fell on the world during the height of the British Empire.

[milquetoast1]

I said it could happen. Islam can reform itself - that is what we are going through. The Islamic Reformation. As little girls in Pakistan decide that they want to go to school, and young men in Egypt decide that they don't want to be told what to do by daft muftis. This it it. The other side of that is that other young men decide that they want war, and murder, for Allah. They want to build a new caliphate. It's all part of the same storm.

 

I know. You're not going to portray me as some apologist. If a man wants to push his religion on other people against their will, then he is my enemy. I'm not a fool. I don't believe in God, or Allah, or Vishnu, and it's my fundamental right to live my life without that.

 

I spoke out against the Islamic Society at Sheffield Hallam here. You're not teaching me anything new.

 

What's your long-term view? Do you think the problem of people killing for this religion is going away?

 

Apologies, I know you're batting for the right side. It's a nuanced problem that we all share, hence it can sometimes seem that we have differences of opinion when we don't.

 

I like your quote from that thread; "There's a darker pattern to this that they want to keep listening to these people". That's very apt. It was also nice to see my old boss posting there.

 

It irritates me that people conflate blame with responsibility, and I absolutely think that the Muslim community shares more of the burden of responsibility for changing the emphasis in the way their religion is taught.

 

Example: A few years ago I was listening to Radio Ramadhan Sheffield and there was a kids section, where they got three kids to read their favourite passages from the Koran. I don't know if the presenter knew what they were going to read, but each of them read rather unpleasant passages about what was going to happen to unbelievers. I wish I had recorded it because I think it was an important sign of what is happening in the minds of very young Muslims.

 

What's my long-term view? Well I'm not too optimistic. My mum and dad fled Egypt because of Islamic intolerance, and since then my dad has only seen it get worse. I too watched the BBC4 programme last night and wept.

 

The problem is linked to identity politics. The fact that Muslims are encouraged to share more empathy with their Muslims "brothers" and "sisters" in far away places than their non-Muslim neighbour next door. The grievance narrative that is widely held has been cast by the extremists who want to divide.

 

Solutions, well I think there are many but because of our willingness to tolerate intolerance (from the apologists as you call them) since Rushdie we have allowed the Salafist elephant into the room and I'm afraid the solution will end up being force. If it is then it needs to be united force.

[remapper]

We don't have any of the problems you refer to in this country so how to you blame a group for a no existent problem?

 

There are of course nutjobs who can attach themselves to any group and for that it is less reasonable to pin blame on the group because what can they do to stop it? The problem for Muslims is that the root cause of the extremism isn't an underlying mental health issue but a nurturing issue. That is something they can and must address.[/quote

 

The irony:rolleyes: interestingly the bbc has now dropped the name islamic state from its reports, indeed dc during pmq's has backed them and concurs with them on this, as he says its not islamic and its not a state, just a group of terrorist thugs.

[eckby]

In Exodus 12:29, God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.

In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.

In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.”

In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children.

In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan.

In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. Sound familiar?

In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.

In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.

In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them.

In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.

In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.

In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.

In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods. Sound familiar?

 

I could go on.

 

In case it's not obvious, these are from the Bible/Torah.

 

No one was arguing that those bits of the bible don't exist, but a couple of members have argued that killing people is unislamic. Plain talker posted a sentence which they claimed was in the Koran, I looked at the verse quoted and it says something different in the online copies I have seen. That verse and the next few verses would give the Tunisian gun man the justification to do what he did.