Disabled try to storm parliament.

[RonJeremy]

There aren't, there isn't enough. The take of of benefits is much lower than it should be. Our society is more than capable of looking after the poorest, the sick etc.

 

I don't see anyone, least of all me, arguing that we shouldn't be looking after the genuinely disabled. Obviously some look after themselves, but for the sake of this thread, we should look after the genuine.

 

---------- Post added 25-06-2015 at 05:55 ----------

 

The number of people 'on the fiddle' was tiny, but made to look much much worse by the constant media focus on those people rather than the genuine ones. You only have to look at the plethora of cleverly edited 'documentaries' on TV. In fact there were more people not claiming benefits, who could have, but didn't.

 

This was all quite deliberate, to harden people's attitude against 'scroungers' to the point where every single claimant was suspect.

 

The tragedy is that many disabled people like to concentrate on what they can do, rather than what they can't, and are justifiably proud of overcoming obstacles. It's this attitude that often keeps them going - but they aren't superman. Yet this optimistic 'confidence' has been turned against them and used to withdraw help. They now have to constantly focus on what they can't do in order to get assistance. Have you any idea the impact this has on their mental well being?

 

This is garbage. The number on the fiddle is HUGE. It is such a serious problem that the government feels they have to do something about it to save money and risk upsetting genuinely disabled people.

 

Can you not tell the difference between someone who has a bit of a bad back back and someone with MND or MS?

[Halibut]

I don't see anyone, least of all me, arguing that we shouldn't be looking after the genuinely disabled. Obviously some look after themselves, but for the sake of this thread, we should look after the genuine.

 

---------- Post added 25-06-2015 at 05:55 ----------

 

 

This is garbage. The number on the fiddle is HUGE. It is such a serious problem that the government feels they have to do something about it to save money and risk upsetting genuinely disabled people.

 

Can you not tell the difference between someone who has a bit of a bad back back and someone with MND or MS?

 

Repeating a lie often enough doen't make it true.

[poppet2]

MPs do a hard job.

 

If MPs do such a hard job, how come Malcolm Rifkin and the likes of many other MPs, including Boris, being the Mayor of London, have second or more jobs?

[RonJeremy]

Repeating a lie often enough doen't make it true.

 

Indeed. So why would they bother trying to reduce the number of bogus claimants if there aren't any?

 

---------- Post added 25-06-2015 at 08:00 ----------

 

If MPs do such a hard job, how come Malcolm Rifkin and the likes of many other MPs, including Boris, being the Mayor of London, have second or more jobs?

 

Do firemen do a hard job?

[I1L2T3]

The number of people 'on the fiddle' was tiny, but made to look much much worse by the constant media focus on those people rather than the genuine ones. You only have to look at the plethora of cleverly edited 'documentaries' on TV. In fact there were more people not claiming benefits, who could have, but didn't.

 

This was all quite deliberate, to harden people's attitude against 'scroungers' to the point where every single claimant was suspect.

 

The tragedy is that many disabled people like to concentrate on what they can do, rather than what they can't, and are justifiably proud of overcoming obstacles. It's this attitude that often keeps them going - but they aren't superman. Yet this optimistic 'confidence' has been turned against them and used to withdraw help. They now have to constantly focus on what they can't do in order to get assistance. Have you any idea the impact this has on their mental well being?

 

Thing is Anna there is outright defrauding of the system and then there is gaming of the system that is happening entirely within the rules. The bigger and more complex the system gets the more loopholes are created along with the wrong incentives.

 

The whole thing needs simplifying and it's unfortunate but it seems like for every genuine claimant there's another who is playing the system, using the rules to their advantage.

 

Unfortunately no government seems intelligent enough to unwind the system and target undeserving claimants without causing collateral damage to the genuine claimants. No better example that the Atos debacle for which Labour and the coalition share the blame.

 

Sad times.

[Halibut]

Indeed. So why would they bother trying to reduce the number of bogus claimants if there aren't any?

 

Your lie was when you claimed that the number of fraudulent claims is huge; it isn't.

[loraward]

Your lie was when you claimed that the number of fraudulent claims is huge; it isn't.

 

Clearly this is something you can't possibly know, you can know how many are caught , but you can't know about the people that are never caught.

[Mister M]

They are only finding it difficult because they've had it good for so long. The amount we are paying in benefits is finite. There is something ridiculous about a system where people say they've "failed a medical" meaning they have been declared fit for work. It most countries people want to work. In this country people used to want to work. The Jarrow march is something that those on the left talk about a lot, but those people marched for jobs, they weren't marching for benefits.

 

Very few on the left talk about the Jarrow march. In fact, I think you're the only one on this thread to have brought it up. Fact is we've moved on from the days of the great depression of the 20s & 30s & I'm glad, though it sounds like you wish for those days.

 

Government policy was put in place as a sledgehammer response to malingerers and chancers encouraged by a benefit system that had run amok. Yes the implementation is wrong but you can't absolve the fiddlers of complicity in the difficulties that genuine claimants are now facing.

 

Money spent on disability benefits is a tiny proportion of the whole annual DWP spend. Pensioners I think, make up the largest group.

Official figures, if they're anything to go by, show that fraud in the benefit system is outweighed by those who go without what officialdom deems they are entitled to and need. Official figures show that less than £2bn was defrauded from the DWP, but annually £16bn of benefits goes unclaimed by those in the most need. But this gets very little publicity.

 

I along with lots of people have always known people that were exaggerating in order to claim disability benefits. People act like the resentment about it is a new thing, since the Tories got in. It's always been there. It's just that now there is a government in power that's prepared to do something about it.

 

I acknowledge that some people do acknowledge do this, and it is wrong. However I hope that you'll acknowledge that officialdom, with the tacit acceptance of those in power allowed for many years, people to be moved onto the sick rather than claiming unemployment benefit. Yes the resentment has always been there, often stoked up by the press.

It's a shame the press don't report the misery of those in need going without because they feel too ashamed or guilty to claim what they're entitled to. Or they under play the hardship and even deaths caused by official indifference to the suffering of many people.

[Flanker7]

............... They now have to constantly focus on what they can't do in order to get assistance. Have you any idea the impact this has on their mental well being?

 

Perhaps this is the subject for another thread but....

 

People are increasingly defined by their victimhood. Whether its the disabled, the victim of crime, bureaucracy or bad luck. You only have to watch some daytime TV, listen to radio or read newspapers. The media love it and to be fair there must be an audience for it.

As you say mental wellbeing is not promoted by the focusing on anyone's handicap of whatever sort.

 

I would like to see these people treated equally and turfed out of the H of P. Prosecuted for any offences committed in an attempt to show them, and everyone else, that civil disobedience is not the way to bring about change.

 

To answer your original question all government's take money from the poorest, or in this case give them less

Edited June 25, 2015 by Flanker7

[Mister M]

I don't see anyone, least of all me, arguing that we shouldn't be looking after the genuinely disabled. Obviously some look after themselves, but for the sake of this thread, we should look after the genuine.

 

---------- Post added 25-06-2015 at 05:55 ----------

 

 

This is garbage. The number on the fiddle is HUGE. It is such a serious problem that the government feels they have to do something about it to save money and risk upsetting genuinely disabled people.

Can you not tell the difference between someone who has a bit of a bad back back and someone with MND or MS?

 

According to Citizens Advice:

"The UK government estimates that total fraud across the whole of the economy amounts to £73 billion a year. UK government figures for 2012 estimate benefits overpaid due to fraud is £1.2 billion and tax credit fraud is £380 million. So just under £1.6 billion in total; less than 1% of the overall benefits and tax credits expenditure and less than benefits underpaid and overpaid due to error."

http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-busting-real-figures-benefit-fraud

 

Given that 'the number on the fiddle' for benefit fraud is 'huge' as you say, but is, in fact a small proportion of the total estimated fraud in the economy. How should the Government and media treat tax & bank fraudsters?