Terrorist attacks in Tunisia & Kuwait. "At least" 27 and 10 dead.

[unbeliever]

I think this thread proves that quite often what people term racism is really just a mix of racial and religious intolerance

 

Yes. Whilst I applaud the criticism of such attitudes, I strongly object to the use of the term racism to describe religious intolerance.

We're supposed to judge people by what they say and do. That's why racism in particular is so profoundly wrong as you can infer nothing about what people say and do from their race.

You can on the other hand infer some things about a person from what creed they follow. This applies not just to religion, but to all belief systems (e.g. socialism). It still remains profoundly wrong to assert that all muslims are at fault for IS, just as it would be to assert that all socialists are at fault for Stalin or the Nazis. But it's not racism and that distinction is very important.

 

I've been challenged on this thread by Tommo68 thread to prove my earlier assertion that "the vast majority of muslims hate IS". I'm very glad to have been challenged about it, because it made me realise that what I said was based on my personal experience of muslims I've known and encountered in my life. International surveys on the matter paint a different picture whereby there is a clear majority of Muslims strongly against extremist violence throughout most of the world, but there are a significant minority who show some degree of support:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/

 

I've been asking on here for thoughts from various people about why it might be that Islam has a far greater murderous nutter problem than the other worshippers of the god of Abraham even though there's not much to choose between them in terms of attitudes to unbelievers in the texts.

I think a lot of it comes down to the Hadith. Muslims are free to pick and choose bits of the Hadith to accept or reject. It's not the "final and unalterable word of God". Using this wider cherry-picked text, it becomes much easier to raise an army of murderous nutters.

Shariah law for example come from the Hadith, as do the 72 virgins for martyrs.

The principle difference between the different Islamic sects seems to be which bits of the Hadith they accept/reject/focus on.

So although the Quran can't be altered (and probably doesn't need to be), as I've commented a couple of times before there is an awful lot of flexibility for Islamic teachers with the Hadith and the Islamic teachers currently preaching hate and violence are the real enemy, not the Quran.

Edited July 2, 2015 by unbeliever

[Blaster Bate]

Indeed. White men burning black churches; doesn't fit the stereotype unfortunately.

Why don't you start a topic?

[eckby]

Yes. Whilst I applaud the criticism of such attitudes, I strongly object to the use of the term racism to describe religious intolerance.

We're supposed to judge people by what they say and do. That's why racism in particular is so profoundly wrong as you can infer nothing about what people say and do from their race.

You can on the other hand infer some things about a person from what creed they follow. This applies not just to religion, but to all belief systems (e.g. socialism). It still remains profoundly wrong to assert that all muslims are at fault for IS, just as it would be to assert that all socialists are at fault for Stalin or the Nazis. But it's not racism and that distinction is very important.

 

I've been challenged on this thread by Tommo68 thread to prove my earlier assertion that "the vast majority of muslims hate IS". I'm very glad to have been challenged about it, because it made me realise that what I said was based on my personal experience of muslims I've known and encountered in my life. International surveys on the matter paint a different picture whereby there is a clear majority of Muslims strongly against extremist violence throughout most of the world, but there are a significant minority who show some degree of support:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/

 

I've been asking on here for thoughts from various people about why it might be that Islam has a far greater murderous nutter problem than the other worshippers of the god of Abraham even though there's not much to choose between them in terms of attitudes to unbelievers in the texts.

I think a lot of it comes down to the Hadith. Muslims are free to pick and choose bits of the Hadith to accept or reject. It's not the "final and unalterable word of God". Using this wider cherry-picked text, it becomes much easier to raise an army of murderous nutters.

Shariah law for example come from the Hadith, as do the 72 virgins for martyrs.

The principle difference between the different Islamic sects seems to be which bits of the Hadith they accept/reject/focus on.

So although the Quran can't be altered (and probably doesn't need to be), as I've commented a couple of times before there is an awful lot of flexibility for Islamic teachers with the Hadith and the Islamic teachers currently preaching hate and violence are the real enemy, not the Quran.

 

If they only teach what is in the book then the book must be at fault, some Muslims believe that the Koran should be obeyed in its entirety, no picking and choosing and these are the Muslims that are likley to kill other Muslims for not being Islamic enough.

[unbeliever]

If they only teach what is in the book then the book must be at fault, some Muslims believe that the Koran should be obeyed in its entirety, no picking and choosing and these are the Muslims that are likley to kill other Muslims for not being Islamic enough.

 

Did you read my entire post?

The diversity within Islam, including that which is followed by IS; can be largely, if not entirely traced not to the Quran but to the Hadith.

You can't just obey the Quran, it's full of contradiction like almost all religious texts. Interpretation is everything.

[eckby]

Did you read my entire post?

The diversity within Islam, including that which is followed by IS; can be largely, if not entirely traced not to the Quran but to the Hadith.

You can't just obey the Quran, it's full of contradiction like almost all religious texts. Interpretation is everything.

 

I was mostly responding to this.

 

Islamic teachers currently preaching hate and violence are the real enemy, not the Quran.

 

The only way to avoid preaching hate and violence is to ignore large parts of the Koran, if they believe the entire book to be the word of God then its not going to be possible to ignore large chunks of it.

 

Everything being done by Isis can be justified by reading Koran.

[unbeliever]

I was mostly responding to this.

 

 

 

The only way to avoid preaching hate and violence is to ignore large parts of the Koran, if they believe the entire book to be the word of God then its not going to be possible to ignore large chunks of it.

 

Everything being done by Isis can be justified by reading Koran.

 

Not without considerable difficulty.

I did point out earlier that pretty much all the same stuff is in the Bible/Torah.

If you look into it a bit, I think you'll find that the problem is really in selective interpretation/reading of the Hadith.

[Tommo68]

Hey Tommo, why bother with any of them, you'd need to leave the comfort of your nuclear fallout shelter...I can picture it now decorated in patriotic bunting, pictures of rosy cheeked ladies wearing gingham aprons, the wireless blaring out Vera Lynn in the corner..halcyon days

 

Ps...I'm surprised you haven't recognised the similarities between why many of those countries you quote have English as their first language and what ISIS are trying to achieve now

 

 

If I cared for you I would be really worried about you.

Home built Fall-out shelters were an idea put about in the 80's by the government. The idea was that in the event of a nuclear attack all your families bodies would already be buried.

The rest of your description might be how you live but speak for yourself. You don't know me or anything about me. So do try to keep your comments either factual or useful.

 

What have a noticed about the countries I mentioned... well all the ones NOT in the middle east have been subject to far less attacks by nutters than those in the middle east.

 

As for my opinion about what isis want to achieve the only real connection I see is is that they are al being slowly taken over by muslim immigrants who are out breeding the indigenous populations it is a type of jehad.

 

I'm curious as to whether the UK be under sharia law before isis attack us openly or not?

 

I also wonder if by then the media and our so called leaders will have decided what to call the terrorist organisation known as isis.

 

---------- Post added 02-07-2015 at 18:38 ----------

 

..................................................................................................................................................................

 

Did you read my entire post?

The diversity within Islam, including that which is followed by IS; can be largely, if not entirely traced not to the Quran but to the Hadith.

You can't just obey the Quran, it's full of contradiction like almost all religious texts. Interpretation is everything.

 

Except that it is not permitted to interpret the words of allah. So there is a bit of a problem with what you suggest.

 

 

allah allegedly said:

One who interprets the Qur’an according to personal opinion1 he makes his place in fire (Hell).

and

One who interprets the Qur’an according to his view,2 even though it may be right, yet he has committed a sin.

.

.

[unbeliever]

 

Except that it is not permitted to interpret the words of allah. So there is a bit of a problem with what you suggest.

 

 

allah allegedly said:

One who interprets the Qur’an according to personal opinion1 he makes his place in fire (Hell).

and

One who interprets the Qur’an according to his view,2 even though it may be right, yet he has committed a sin.

.

.

 

It is however permitted to be selective regarding the Hadith.

[eckby]

Not without considerable difficulty.

I did point out earlier that pretty much all the same stuff is in the Bible/Torah.

If you look into it a bit, I think you'll find that the problem is really in selective interpretation/reading of the Hadith.

 

What are ISIS doing that you don't think the Koran justifies, which parts do you think Isis have misinterpreted. I don't think it would be possible to misinterpret an instruction from God to kill non believers, so if you believe the Koran is God's word you are left with ignoring God's instructions or following God's instruction.

[janie48]

Today at 12 midday a minute's silence is being held for the victims of the Tunisia attack.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33375928