What effect has greece had on your decision to leave euro?

[unbeliever]

Did you even read that oath? "Following the vote of consent by the European Parliament"? The EU is designed to be operated by its member-states and the parliament serves for ratification, just as it does here. The member-states choose the executive. Just as is done here by the winning party. Again, how much influence did you have on the appointment of Boris Johnson? None, but for some reason you are fine with that? False analogy or false sentiment?

 

Oh wow! The european parliament has to rubber-stamp the appointments. I guess that'll do will it?

 

In the UK system we choose the MPs, the MPs choose the PM and the PM chooses the ministers. That's a parliamentary democracy.

We have an opportunity to kick out everybody every 5 years.

How do we kick out the EU commissioners?

 

---------- Post added 13-07-2015 at 09:43 ----------

 

Edit (cont): at some point that was always going to hit. It is a fallacy to think that if Greece was out of the Euro it would have bitten less hard, it wouldn't. The country would probably be in a worse state with spiralling inflation. It seems to me a lot of you are not quite clear on what inflation does so let me paint it: Greece' biggest economic activity is tourism. Each tourist coming in paying 100 euros pays just that. If Greece had the Drachme that 100 euros would slowly become 50 euros due to the constant devaluation. That means that over time Greeks (with no natural resources) would end up receiving that 50 euros whilst their gas and petrol bill keeps going up. Not a healthy situation. Greece has benefited from being in the Euro because it was protected from that effect and now it is benefitting because the Eurozone clearly does not want to leave the Greeks for dirt.

 

The Greeks managed their economy in large part by allowing the value of their currency to change dramatically between the on and off tourist season. A big problem for them is that they've lost that.

Devaluation isn't a perfect solution, but it's been a big part of the standard IMF solution for every non-euro country which has ever got into this kind of trouble.

Gods protect us from EU charity if this is what it looks like.

 

The Greeks need to put their economy back into growth. They can't do that because they can't deal with their debt. They can't deal with their debt because they're in the EURO. It's not complicated and pretending that the EURO is not part of the problem is ridiculous.

[annaboros]

but I think we should stay in the EU, and I hope Greece does as well (in some manor).

Without a doubt though, any ideas of further integration on our part are well dead.

[unbeliever]

but I think we should stay in the EU, and I hope Greece does as well (in some manor).

Without a doubt though, any ideas of further integration on our part are well dead.

 

Don't you believe it. It's just slowed things down. The grand European project is an unstoppable juggernaut.

[L00b]

Oh wow! The european parliament has to rubber-stamp the appointments. I guess that'll do will it?

Sounds better than the Queen rubberstamping the UK Gvt to me

Gods protect us from EU charity if this is what it looks like.

 

Since when do loans with terms and conditions agreed by mutually-consenting parties answer the definition of 'charity'?

The Greeks need to put their economy back into growth. They can't do that because they can't deal with their debt.

They were dealing with it just fine until on/around August 2014 (at which time they started reverting to full-clientelist-Greek by conveniently omitting to reform their internal tax affairs, and didn't get their next bailout slice), and still reasonably OK despite that missed slice thereafter until on/around January 2015.

 

Then Tsipras and "game theory expert" Varoufakis got elected on a populist wave, and bankrupted Greece inside 5 months. Never fear for Varoufakis' future, though: like all good champagne socialists, he fights capitalism during the week, and enjoys its spoils on weekends.

They can't deal with their debt because they're in the EURO.

They can't deal with their debt for internal, historical reasons: they have the fiscal systems (ho-hum) of a third world country, and have never seen fit to modernise and reform these because taking a bribe from the taxpayers (and I mean that both institutionally -whole industry sectors- and at the personal level) was always easier somehow.

 

The Euro just aggravated the situation by ginning up a new/extra magic money tree, but don't kid yourself that Greece wouldn't have needed its bailouts if it had stayed with the Drachma.

It's not complicated and pretending that the EURO is not part of the problem is ridiculous.

The Euro should have been part of the solution, had Greece set about doing the basic minimum of what was required to try and stay with the € club.

 

Instead, the can has been kicked, and Greece will be coming round for bailout 4 in 2 or 3 years' time. Oh well, hopefully the template has been set this time, so there'll be less drama and wasted time.

Edited July 13, 2015 by L00b

[tzijlstra]

Oh wow! The european parliament has to rubber-stamp the appointments. I guess that'll do will it?

 

In the UK system we choose the MPs, the MPs choose the PM and the PM chooses the ministers. That's a parliamentary democracy.

We have an opportunity to kick out everybody every 5 years.

How do we kick out the EU commissioners?

 

Well, that had you salivating for a moment, didn't it. Idiotic thing here is of course that the parallel is exactly the same, we choose MPs who create a government who appoint EU commissioners, we choose MEPs who validate what these commissioners get up to in legal terms. Do you remember we had an election a few years back? Everybody here voted UKIP in as MEPs?Do you ever wonder why the UK is suffering from waning influence, because that is your answer right there.

 

The Greeks managed their economy in large part by allowing the value of their currency to change dramatically between the on and off tourist season. A big problem for them is that they've lost that.

Devaluation isn't a perfect solution, but it's been a big part of the standard IMF solution for every non-euro country which has ever got into this kind of trouble.

Gods protect us from EU charity if this is what it looks like.

 

The Greeks need to put their economy back into growth. They can't do that because they can't deal with their debt. They can't deal with their debt because they're in the EURO. It's not complicated and pretending that the EURO is not part of the problem is ridiculous.

 

This is a laughable claim. Before the Euro was introduced as a concept the Drachme was continuously slipping against the Dmark, it was only when it was anchored to the Euro-rate that this stopped.

 

So what you are saying is: The Greeks need massive inflation (We are talking 660% over the period 1980-2000 effectively 1980-1995) because that is better for the Greeks? I suggest you look that up in the theory books.

 

Edit: By the way, the last two times Greece nearly went bankrupt was during that pre-Euro period, they would have gone under with the banking crisis regardless of being in the Euro. The only thing that is stopping them going under now IS their membership of the Euro.

[unbeliever]

Well, that had you salivating for a moment, didn't it. Idiotic thing here is of course that the parallel is exactly the same, we choose MPs who create a government who appoint EU commissioners, we choose MEPs who validate what these commissioners get up to in legal terms. Do you remember we had an election a few years back? Everybody here voted UKIP in as MEPs?Do you ever wonder why the UK is suffering from waning influence, because that is your answer right there.

 

 

How do we, the electors, remove an EU commissioner?

 

This is a laughable claim. Before the Euro was introduced as a concept the Drachme was continuously slipping against the Dmark, it was only when it was anchored to the Euro-rate that this stopped.

 

So what you are saying is: The Greeks need massive inflation (We are talking 660% over the period 1980-2000 effectively 1980-1995) because that is better for the Greeks? I suggest you look that up in the theory books.

 

Your characterisation of my argument is funny, but not helpful.

Every IMF rescue package involves a devaluation as a vital part of the solution.

 

Edit: By the way, the last two times Greece nearly went bankrupt was during that pre-Euro period, they would have gone under with the banking crisis regardless of being in the Euro. The only thing that is stopping them going under now IS their membership of the Euro.

 

The IMF would probably have been called in eventually anyway. What's the first thing they would have done? Oh yes: Devalue.

 

There are many cities and counties in the UK which run out of money. They may be badly run. They may have some economic misfortune. The rest of the UK gives them money. Not lends, gives.

But the whole UK runs the same rules, responsibilities, rights and entitlements.

 

Whoever in the EU convinced the eurozone peoples that they could have a common currency without a common treasury and government was a damn liar and should go to jail.

Edited July 13, 2015 by unbeliever

[L00b]

How do we, the electors, remove an EU commissioner?

Democratically: by tabling a motion supported by at least 10 MEPs at the European Parliament and running a vote

 

Other than that, and by-the-by, Commissioners (1 per EU Member State) hold office for a term of 5 years.

The Commission is composed of the College of Commissioners of 28 members, including the President and Vice-Presidents. The Commissioners, one from each EU country, are the Commission's political leadership during a 5-year term. Each Commissioner is assigned responsibility for specific policy areas by the President.

(from the horse's mouth) Edited July 13, 2015 by L00b

[mattleonard]

Apart from the fact that we're all grown ups these days, NATO is the reason, why war will never break out between European countries ever again, nothing to do with the EU, that's just laughable scaremongering.

 

Well, it's certainly less laughable than the statement which preceded it, that Europe has enjoyed long periods of peace prior to European integration, including the 19th century. The longest period of peace was 1871-14, which admittedly did include nearly 30 years of the 19th century, but that was just the ratcheting-up to hostilities breaking out in 1914.

 

As long as there are people who are naive enough to think that we're too "grown-up" for war, then yes, we certainly need economic and political institutions to prevent their occurrence - and as for the implication about those nations of the world who are currently involved in conflicts within their own environs, presumably you feel they are primitive compared with us?

 

Regarding NATO, you are right that it plays a huge role in our current peace, but NATO exists because it suits the political and economic alignments of its members. When it ceases to do so, then they'll cede. Putin would be very happy to pick off a few of the eastern states from the EU, knowing that when they're less integrated with Europe then they might feel better off under Russia's influence than with NATO.

 

In the short term, if we exit the EU, then it probably won't have a significant short-term effect on us conflict-wise. If it becomes trendy to leave the EU, or the EU breaks up, then it'll almost certainly be a disastrophe.

[tzijlstra]

How do we, the electors, remove an EU commissioner?

as L00b already pointed out - MEPs can launch a vote of no confidence, same as here. How do we, the electors, remove an MP? I wish you good luck with that one, the only reason you are questioning this is because of your double standard.

 

Your characterisation of my argument is funny, but not helpful.

Every IMF rescue package involves a devaluation as a vital part of the solution.

 

Don't you think it is about time the Greek governments learned to do WITHOUT devaluing their coin and requiring bail-outs? As far as I am concerned that is what they should aim for.

 

The IMF would probably have been called in eventually anyway. What's the first thing they would have done? Oh yes: Devalue.

 

There are many cities and counties in the UK which run out of money. They may be badly run. They may have some economic misfortune. The rest of the UK gives them money. Not lends, gives.

But the whole UK runs the same rules, responsibilities, rights and entitlements.

 

Whoever in the EU convinced the eurozone peoples that they could have a common currency without a common treasury and government was a damn liar and should go to jail.

 

The plural of people is people. They have a common treasury (ECB) and a common government (EU) but you are right, further integration is desirable.

 

I also would like to remind you, again, of the fact that the Eurozone has outperformed the UK since the crisis in economic terms DESPITE the Greek crisis. So perhaps it isn't all as doom and gloom as certain sceptics would like to point it out to be.

[apelike]

Well, it's certainly less laughable than the statement which preceded it, that Europe has enjoyed long periods of peace prior to European integration, including the 19th century. The longest period of peace was 1871-14, which admittedly did include nearly 30 years of the 19th century, but that was just the ratcheting-up to hostilities breaking out in 1914.

 

Not really laughable as most of the conflicts you wrote about were internal and civil which didn't involve other european countries. Take away those conflicts and there is little left.

 

---------- Post added 13-07-2015 at 13:57 ----------

 

 

So perhaps it isn't all as doom and gloom as certain sceptics would like to point it out to be.

 

But it all still hinges on whether Greece can get the conditions of the bailout reforms passed in the next 48 hours.

Edited July 13, 2015 by apelike