What effect has greece had on your decision to leave euro?

[L00b]

At best we will be offered a slower pace of integration.

That corresponds to the current status quo (subject to what bacon Cameron can slice off and bring back), and dismisses the possibility of a alter-EU made up on non-€ EU member states on different membership terms. Which is increasingly being favoured.

The €zone is ahead of the non-€ countries in terms of integration, but exactly the same institutions, leaders, civil servants and organisations are running the EU who run the €.

The €Z members have no choice but to integrate further, as the current Greek fiasco has amply demonstrated.

 

There is a vast body of legislative instruments that govern €Z membership, to which the UK, DK and more are not parties, which inherently already guarantees different treatment of the UK by EU institutions and executive bodies, regardless of whether Cameron manages to renegotiate anything.

If we don't leave, exactly the same fate will befall us. We'll either end in in Greece's situation of being run from the EU and losing any real self-determination, or Germany's situation of being forced to throw hard-earned money at a dysfunctional state.

The UK has sod all chances of losing self-determination to the EU in the manner of Greece, unless it started to run a budget deficit that dwarfs the 2009-2010 one for decades and eventually had no choice but to go cap in hand to the ECB for ELA/ESM.

 

Germany's throwing vast amounts of cash at Greece is entirely down to their joint €Z membership, not so much its EU membership at all.

 

And I've not touched on the fact that the UK is a net contributor to the EU budget, and that situation comes with a fairly big political stick. The sort that gets non-trivial rebates and a lot of attention to be paid to renegotiation demands.

Edited July 8, 2015 by L00b

[mattleonard]

And then we can solve differences in the same way we did in 1914 and 1938. Yeah.

 

Spot on. Whilst the goal of European Union has been lost sight of, the purpose from the ECSC onwards was integration in order to prevent huge international conflicts. The record so far shows that its been spectacularly successful.

 

It's going to be interesting how things work out with Russia though - they obviously would point their finger at the EU being the problem, but either way, I'm definitely happier with Putin having the EU as a bulwark to the west rather than not.

[unbeliever]

That corresponds to the current status quo (subject to what bacon Cameron can slice off and bring back), and dismisses the possibility of a alter-EU made up on non-€ EU member states on different membership terms. Which is increasingly being favoured.

The €Z members have no choice but to integrate further, as the current Greek fiasco has amply demonstrated.

 

There is a vast body of legislative instruments that govern €Z membership, to which the UK, DK and more are not parties, which inherently already guarantees different treatment of the UK by EU institutions and executive bodies, regardless of whether Cameron manages to renegotiate anything.

The UK has sod all chances of losing self-determination to the EU in the manner of Greece, unless it started to run a budget deficit that dwarfs the 2009-2010 one for decades and eventually had no choice but to go cap in hand to the ECB for ELA/ESM.

 

Germany's throwing vast amounts of cash at Greece is entirely down to their joint €Z membership, not so much its EU membership at all.

 

I know we keep getting told this.

But I don't believe it.

 

We were told in 1975 (before my time) that we were essentially joining a free trade agreement. Ted Heath later admitted that this was a flat out lie.

 

This is not a right-left thing. The late Tony Benn and Bob Crow said exactly the same things, that John Redwood and Bill Cash are saying now. John King is still saying it.

 

Fool me once, shame on you etc etc.

 

You're fooling yourself if you think we can stay in the EU and avoid further integration. It's completely implausible.

[L00b]

I know we keep getting told this.

Getting told what?

 

That you can be a club member without signing up to the club rules? Or that the club rules can't be changed?

You're fooling yourself if you think we can stay in the EU and avoid further integration. It's completely implausible.

1975 is not before my time, and I've lived in the EU (previously EEC <etc.>) since I was born. Pre-Maastricht, post-Maastricht, pre-Shengen, post-Shengen, in an area of France with 4 borders within 50 miles of one another (Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, France).

 

I've lived in several of its Member States to date, married a Brit (I'm not a Brit), have a kid with dual nationality (nearly got triple, but for a matter of weeks), and family & friends spread across EU Member States.

 

In over 40 years, the EU has done nothing but make things easier for me, us and the others. More opportunities, better and safer socio-economic environment, easier mobility and travelling, easier financial management and investing, <etc.> To say nothing of the actual peace. I know that last one sounds very cliché'd these days....but my parents are baby-boomers, and they are the first generation in centuries never to have experienced warfare in the corner of France I'm from.

 

You (and most EUphobes it seems) see "further integration" as some sort of a boogeyman in a monochromatic context. Life experience has taught me to distinguish shades of grey, some brighter ones worthy of praise, some darker ones worthy of contempt if not outright fight (e.g. ACTA before, now TIPP) and, in that context, to appreciate that "further integration" is anything but a boogeyman - just more shades of grey

Edited July 8, 2015 by L00b

[unbeliever]

Getting told what?

 

That you can be a club member without signing up to the club rules? Or that the club rules can't be changed?

1975 is not before my time, and I've lived in the EU since I was born.

 

I've lived in several of its Member States to date, married a Brit (I'm not a Brit), have a kid with dual nationality (nearly got triple, but for a matter of weeks), and family & friends spread across EU Member States.

 

In over 40 years, the EU has done nothing but make things easier for me, us and the others. More opportunities, better and safer socio-economic environment, easier mobility and travelling, easier financial management and investing, <etc.>

 

You see "further integration" as some sort of a boogeyman in a monochromatic context. Life experience has taught me to distinguish shades of grey, some brighter ones worthy of praise, some darker ones worthy of contempt if not outright fight (e.g. ACTA before, now TIPP) and, in that context, to appreciate that "further integration" is anything but a boogeyman - just more shades of grey

 

We keep getting told that we can stay in the EU and avoid further integration. Apart from that I think we need to reverse most of the integration which has already occurred. We can't have half our laws being made by the EU.

 

Whether the EU has been a force for good is debatable. I'm glad it has done well for you and I wish you the best.

The EU however is not a functional democracy and has made some very big mistakes. Democracy is not something you negotiate away for the prospect of prosperity and besides the majority of the UK will be better off out.

Edited July 8, 2015 by unbeliever

[Cyclone]

The EU is not static. It's never been static and it never will be.

At best we will be offered a slower pace of integration.

 

The €zone is ahead of the non-€ countries in terms of integration, but exactly the same institutions, leaders, civil servants and organisations are running the EU who run the €.

 

If we don't leave, exactly the same fate will befall us. We'll either end in in Greece's situation of being run from the EU and losing any real self-determination, or Germany's situation of being forced to throw hard-earned money at a dysfunctional state.

 

If the entire EU ends up as a federal state then we will have just as much voting power as France and Germany. I'd be perfectly happy with that. Larger countries have more power, the EU as a country would be on a par with the US and China.

 

What I don't agree with is a common currency but NOT having a common tax regime, benefits system, pension system, etc... You can't have one without the other, and not see problems like Greece.

 

---------- Post added 08-07-2015 at 11:54 ----------

 

We keep getting told that we can stay in the EU and avoid further integration. Apart from that I think we need to reverse most of the integration which has already occurred. We can't have half our laws being made by the EU.

 

Why?

 

And the EU includes us, it's not like it's some outside force imposing things on us. There are probably French and German europhobes saying the same thing and imagining that the UK makes the laws through the EU and impose them on them.

[unbeliever]

If the entire EU ends up as a federal state then we will have just as much voting power as France and Germany. I'd be perfectly happy with that. Larger countries have more power, the EU as a country would be on a par with the US and China.

 

What I don't agree with is a common currency but NOT having a common tax regime, benefits system, pension system, etc... You can't have one without the other, and not see problems like Greece.

 

---------- Post added 08-07-2015 at 11:54 ----------

 

 

Why?

 

And the EU includes us, it's not like it's some outside force imposing things on us. There are probably French and German europhobes saying the same thing and imagining that the UK makes the laws through the EU and impose them on them.

 

It's not sufficiently democratic. That's why.

Besides, power is too centralised even within the UK. It should be passed down, not up.

[Panama]

We should stay in the European union, freedom of travel.

[unbeliever]

We should stay in the European union, freedom of travel.

 

We have that anyway. Do you mean free movement of workers?

[Guest]

We should stay in the European union, freedom of travel...........

 

.................For terrorists and general ne'er-do-well's, potentially.

 

We live in too dangerous a world nowadays for freedom of movement.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Guest