What effect has greece had on your decision to leave euro?

[drummonds]

The Greeks get a chance to vote for their MEP's but there is a problem with proportionality as the number of MEP's each country has is based on population. Therefore the larger the countries population the greater their influence on the structure of the EU.

 

The country with the greatest number of MEP's is Germany with the maximum of 96. France, UK, Spain and Italy all have around 73 and Poland 50.

 

Greece on the other hand has around 24.

 

So the countries with the most MEP's can easily stand together to pass laws and have the main control which smaller countries have no chance to challenge. They are also the main money lenders.

 

so thats like sheffield only having 6 mps so they can get outvoted by scotland.

[hauxwell]

If Cameron is unable to get the reforms that he and the majority of the English people want, then we should leave the EU.

 

No other country has left the EU, so I suppose no one can predict what would happen. Norway seems to be doing okay without being a member of the EU.

 

There would definitely have to be a reformed EU for me to vote yes to stay in.

[Harrystottle]

On the Andrew Marr show this morning they were talking about the "democratic deficit" of the EU. I couldn't believe it. Kevin Maguire was nodding away at this, too.

 

Also a poster boy of the left, Owen Jones has said "You’ve got a massive democratic deficit and a lack of accountability at the heart of the European project… it’s an attack on democracy as things stand.” and “I think a debate needs to open up on the left about whether we should stay in the European Union".

 

Well blow me down.

[mattleonard]

Norway seems to be doing okay without being a member of the EU.

 

Norway's economy - which isn't exactly thriving at the moment - is heavily based on its oil reserves, which are massive in proportion to its population compared with ours.

[I1L2T3]

If Cameron is unable to get the reforms that he and the majority of the English people want, then we should leave the EU.

 

No other country has left the EU, so I suppose no one can predict what would happen. Norway seems to be doing okay without being a member of the EU.

 

There would definitely have to be a reformed EU for me to vote yes to stay in.

 

We could have been like Norway. They did one vital thing that could never have happened here under the Tory governments of the 80s and 90s - Norway nationalised oil and gas, sub-licenced production, taxed the production companies, then ringfenced the taxes collected for social infrastructure and investment.

 

We wasted our revenues. We missed the boat. No trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund for us.

[mediumfast]

Was mostly in favour ,now would vote to come out!

[drummonds]

We could have been like Norway. They did one vital thing that could never have happened here under the Tory governments of the 80s and 90s - Norway nationalised oil and gas, sub-licenced production, taxed the production companies, then ringfenced the taxes collected for social infrastructure and investment.

 

We wasted our revenues. We missed the boat. No trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund for us.

 

what an interesting distortion of reality. you do realise that we had been extracting oil and gas from the noth sea for a couple of decades prior to the 80s and 90s that you mention. we also had quite a few opportunities for labour governments to nationalise north sea assetts. the reason they didn't is that north sea oil exploration is a multi national activity and rather complicated. every one remembers the debacle of government nationalisation of steel, british leyland etc. enough for us to know that it would have meant north sea oil becoming an over manned loss making burocracy.

you also seem to ignore that norway's population is 1/12th of that of the UK but their oil production is double ours.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2015 at 12:20 ----------

 

Norway's economy - which isn't exactly thriving at the moment - is heavily based on its oil reserves, which are massive in proportion to its population compared with ours.

 

that seems like a rather more balanced version of the truth than others i might mention.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2015 at 12:18 ----------

 

Was mostly in favour ,now would vote to come out!

 

thats about where i stand to

---------- Post added 12-07-2015 at 12:20 ----------

Edited July 12, 2015 by drummonds

[L00b]

On the Andrew Marr show this morning they were talking about the "democratic deficit" of the EU. I couldn't believe it. Kevin Maguire was nodding away at this, too.

 

Also a poster boy of the left, Owen Jones has said "You’ve got a massive democratic deficit and a lack of accountability at the heart of the European project… it’s an attack on democracy as things stand.” and “I think a debate needs to open up on the left about whether we should stay in the European Union".

 

Well blow me down.

Indeed. It's the big bad European regime cutting the legs from under poor, old democratically elected Syriza, don't you know.

 

What had they ever done to deserve this.

 

Not like they got elected on a platform of direct confrontation with the EU and the ECB, promising to renege on previous deals done and following through by giving away free electricity, re-hiring civil servants, etc.

 

Nope, it was all Europe, spontaneously deciding to go after Syriza for no reason at all.

 

The Greek people elected Syriza democratically. It was Syriza's initiative to act like a tit for 6 months, walk away from a deal and call a referendum. It was Syriza's job to ensure the Greek people were fully informed of what was at stake in that referendum. The Greek people chose OXI democratically.

 

"Democratic deficit"? I'll tell you who's democratically-deficient: Greek politicians (mostly) and the Greek people itself, demanding to be bailed a 3rd time by the rest of EU States and citizens and holding the EU to ransom. Well guess what, they're about to learn what true democracy means, after the German and Finnish Parliaments (to begin with, there's others) vote on bailing them out.

 

There's no democratic deficit at the EU, Juncker's relentless cajoling and helping of Tsipras (and pacifying of other EU States) for the past 4 months is proof positive of it. It just got messy because one side played an academic game, lost and refused to acknowledge the situation for too long in the face of running deadlines.

 

1) Greece is FUBAR without help, mostly due to Greece itself and in no way aided by Greek behaviour in last 6 months. But still, we're talking about a whole nation being messed up, to the point of humanitarian aid, with whatever decision is made.

 

2) Europe is still young and divided. It's still finding it's way, with dominant powers, historical problems and cultural differences. What's acceptable in one area is taboo in another.

 

3) Internal politics. A Eurosceptic minority Govt party in a previously peripheral state suddenly has centre stage because of its political ideology. It's no different to a French Govt assisting Greece in laying out proposals to try stay in, all in Socialist brotherhood.

 

These are just 3 fundamental issues, there are more, to explain how messy this has all got. But hey, welcome to true democracy. Dissenting voices debating amongst themselves, trying to reach a solution. That's far less worrying then a single dominating voice controlling it. So if the Finns First group can override Germany, doesn't that lay lie to the idea Merkel is in charge? If the Finns First group does override everyone, let them deal with the spotlight they draw on themselves.

Edited July 12, 2015 by L00b

[DrNorm]

Hmmm ... is it the case that the Greek vote was democratic but irresponsible?

 

Is it also the case that EU technocrats are being responsible without an obvious democratic mandate?

[tzijlstra]

Hmmm ... is it the case that the Greek vote was democratic but irresponsible?

 

Is it also the case that EU technocrats are being responsible without an obvious democratic mandate?

 

No that latter isn't the case. In fact, that is nonsense that keeps being repeated by Eurosceptics. Tell me how the EU is less democratic than Westminster? Hint: You will struggle.