What effect has greece had on your decision to leave euro?

[L00b]

Hmmm ... is it the case that the Greek vote was democratic but irresponsible?

Absolutely. Though, arguably, the irresponsibility lies mostly with Tsipras/Syriza, for deliberately failing to explain to the Greek electorate (and, insistent Syriza-internal rumours abound, to Syriza's rank-and-file itself) what was at stake, both when they were campaigning for the GE pre-January, and in the recent referendum.

 

All the same, blame the Greeks, don't blame the Greeks, it's an entirely redundant debate: they're stuck with the consequences just the same.

Is it also the case that EU technocrats are being responsible without an obvious democratic mandate?

The ECB is not a political organisation, just like any country's Central Bank. It cannot be, for very obvious reasons. All other EU bodies are political, and democratically composed. That being the reason why the decision to push Greece out would be taken in a meeting of the Heads of all the EU States (including non-€Z).

 

There is no more democratic deficit at the EU, than there is in any given EU Member State, the UK included. How much clearer can I put it?

Edited July 12, 2015 by L00b

[DrNorm]

My point wasn't a point, but a question ... there is a view, not uncommon, that many important decisions in the EU are not made by elected MEPs, but behind the scenes by "technocrats". The EU has at least got a lot of PR to do to remedy that (mis)conception.

 

There's a whole other debate about how democratic First Past The Post elections are, but that's another issue.

[apelike]

My point wasn't a point, but a question ... there is a view, not uncommon, that many important decisions in the EU are not made by elected MEPs, but behind the scenes by "technocrats". The EU has at least got a lot of PR to do to remedy that (mis)conception.

 

 

The trouble though is that the decisions about the future of the EU and that of Greece are being made by the 18 leaders of the Eurozone, plus financial experts.

 

These decisions are not being made by elected MEP's.

[L00b]

The trouble though is that the decisions about the future of the EU and that of Greece are being made by the 18 leaders of the Eurozone, plus financial experts.

 

These decisions are not being made by elected MEP's.

28, not 18.

 

And those 28 leaders are what? Divine-right Royalty? Dictators?

 

I agree with you as a matter of principle, though. The whole of the €Z Electorate should be consulted by referendum on this one instance, with votes weighed pro-rata the required contribution to the Greek bailout relative to each Member State's GDP (wherein e.g. Finnish voters may get a heavier vote than Portuguese or Irish ones). But there isn't time, Syriza made sure of that. And it would effectively condone Syriza's ill-thought-out marxist experiment EU-wide, and there would be very severe economic consequences to that.

Edited July 12, 2015 by L00b

[I1L2T3]

what an interesting distortion of reality. you do realise that we had been extracting oil and gas from the noth sea for a couple of decades prior to the 80s and 90s that you mention. we also had quite a few opportunities for labour governments to nationalise north sea assetts. the reason they didn't is that north sea oil exploration is a multi national activity and rather complicated. every one remembers the debacle of government nationalisation of steel, british leyland etc. enough for us to know that it would have meant north sea oil becoming an over manned loss making burocracy.

you also seem to ignore that norway's population is 1/12th of that of the UK but their oil production is double ours.[ /QUOTE]

 

Of course Labour could have done it but you seem to have a mental block about the wholesale denationalisation that took place 79-97. The energy sector was a prime target.

 

The other issue is that funds were used to support economic rebalancing, the wind down of nationalised industries and welfare payments for those thrown out of work.

 

Arguably the fact that we ended up with nothing left is proof of the fact the whole thing was mismanaged, by all types of governments.

[DrNorm]

The whole of the €Z Electorate should be consulted by referendum on this one instance

 

Interesting point. Could be expensive, may be low turnout, but on this important matter, justice needs to be seen to be done. Hard choices need to be made, and those who help Greece (again) must have a sense of a fair settlement and the Greeks must be under no illusion of having soft options.

[I1L2T3]

No that latter isn't the case. In fact, that is nonsense that keeps being repeated by Eurosceptics. Tell me how the EU is less democratic than Westminster? Hint: You will struggle.

 

I never saw the EU parliament vote to ratify the bending of the rules in 2010. In fact, if agreement is reached with Greece then remind me when the vote in the EU parliament will take place to ratify it.

 

Major decisions are continuously taken at commission level by unelected technocrats and that is a fact.

[andyofborg]

If Cameron is unable to get the reforms that he and the majority of the English people want, then we should leave the EU.

 

but what reforms does he and "the majority" of english people want?

 

Norway seems to be doing okay without being a member of the EU.

 

Norway appears to be far more europe-facing than what we are though. The impression that most of the anti-euers on here create is that they want to pretend the world ends at the english channel.....

[drummonds]

[ /QUOTE]

 

Of course Labour could have done it but you seem to have a mental block about the wholesale denationalisation that took place 79-97. The energy sector was a prime target.

 

The other issue is that funds were used to support economic rebalancing, the wind down of nationalised industries and welfare payments for those thrown out of work.

 

Arguably the fact that we ended up with nothing left is proof of the fact the whole thing was mismanaged, by all types of governments.

 

i don't have a mental block at all. the uk spent the money it got from denationalising industries. the nationalisation of industries led to nothing more than gross inefficiency, and any money raised from selling those industries was better spent on services than propping up lame ducks like british leyland. labour governments nationalise industries as a prelude to closure. tory governments only nationalise industries in an emergency with a view to reselling asap order to resell after the emergency.

 

if there is one thing that has come out of the greek crisis it is the knowledge that governments spend every penny they have trying to buy votes. we have also learned that the buck eventually stops and folks have to pay the bills regardless of what the commies try to tell them.

Edited July 12, 2015 by drummonds

[apelike]

28, not 18.

 

According to the BBC earlier the meeting was attended by the 18 Eurozone leaders.

 

But the latest says..

 

Posted at 17:51

 

"A costly bailout

 

The news agency AFP is reporting that a new bailout for Greece could amount to €82-86bn.

 

This is according to a document drafted by the eurozone finance ministers who submitted it to the 19 eurozone leaders. The leaders' summit has since broken up for bilateral talks on the Greek bailout."

 

So the summit has 18 or 19 eurozone leaders.