Am I still allowed to question climate change?

[Wildcat]

Isn't most of the earths heat storage contained in the oceans, rather than the land?

 

Yes. This article explains it

 

http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/10/skeptical-science-global-warming-not-cooling-is-still-happening-ocean-heat-content/

[Wildcat]

A new low for Wikicat, trusting that well known scientific institution the Daily Mail as a source of information!

 

And what's the opening paragraph say?

 

"But major crop growing regions of the U.S., Canada and Mexico have escaped the warming trend - and are just as cool as they were 30 years ago"

 

So if the temperature in a massive amount of the earth's land mass hasn't increased then the warming isn't global, therefore global warming doesn't exist!

 

Bit of an own goal there, Wiki! :hihi:

 

I wouldn't trust the Daily Mail to report truthfully on anything, I was quoting it to show Jibbo was claiming the article said the opposite of what it had in fact said. Either dishonest or pretty dumb.

 

You can't disprove global warming and the inevitable consequences of the science by finding an area of the planet not warming. What matters is that the planet as a whole is warming.

[Wildcat]

A method which requires them to show both the data and methodology used to arrive at those results (opinions don't count - results are what we are interested in with hard science).

 

Something which the AGW crowd have steadfastly refused to provide, or where it has been provided has had holes blown in it from both a scientific and a statistical point of view.

 

You can find all the data anyone would need from the links here:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/

 

As for methodology???? have you never in the course of this thread actually looked at paper on climate change? You will find the methodology described in meticulous detail.

 

These arguments that blow holes in the science.... they would be the collection of obviously illogical fallacies you keep repeating?

[retep]

Yes. This article explains it

 

http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/10/skeptical-science-global-warming-not-cooling-is-still-happening-ocean-heat-content/

 

Which raises a mystery,

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88520025

[Phanerothyme]

Which raises a mystery,

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88520025

 

Er, did you read either article?

[rickiethecat]

You can find all the data anyone would need from the links here:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/

 

As for methodology???? have you never in the course of this thread actually looked at paper on climate change? You will find the methodology described in meticulous detail.

 

These arguments that blow holes in the science.... they would be the collection of obviously illogical fallacies you keep repeating?

 

The more of your posts I read Wildcat, the more it seems you fit the SHOUTY PETE stereotype I mentioned yesterday.

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=779735

 

To reiterate, SHOUTY PETES make posts that fit this template.

 

 

 

"I THINK <insert random pointless opinion of your choice>

 

AND I CAN PROVE IT <insert random link to a dubious site>

 

ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH ME CAN <insert random insult>

 

HAVE A NICE DAY"

[Wildcat]

The more of your posts I read Wildcat, the more it seems you fit the SHOUTY PETE stereotype I mentioned yesterday.

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=779735

 

To reiterate, SHOUTY PETES make posts that fit this template.

 

 

 

"I THINK <insert random pointless opinion of your choice>

 

AND I CAN PROVE IT <insert random link to a dubious site>

 

ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH ME CAN <insert random insult>

 

HAVE A NICE DAY"

 

Lol maybe you should reflect on your own contributions before criticising others

[retep]

Er, did you read either article?

 

Article 1 from wiki

Figure 1 only goes as far as 2003 as the ocean heat data used (Domingues 2008 ) only goes that far. What has global warming been doing since then? Since 2003, ocean heat data has been measured by the newly deployed Argo network. However, there have been teething problems with the Argo buoys experiencing pressure sensor issues that impose a cooling bias on the data. Consequently there have been several data analyses on ocean heat since 2003. One reconstruction of ocean heat show cooling since 2003 (Willis 2008 ). Other analyses of the Argo data show ocean warming (Levitus 2009, Leuliette 2009, Cazenave 2009).

 

 

Article 2 from me

Some 3,000 scientific robots that are plying the ocean have sent home a puzzling message. These diving instruments suggest that the oceans have not warmed up at all over the past four or five years. That could mean global warming has taken a breather. Or it could mean scientists aren't quite understanding what their robots are telling them.

 

This is puzzling in part because here on the surface of the Earth, the years since 2003 have been some of the hottest on record. But Josh Willis at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says the oceans are what really matter when it comes to global warming.

 

In fact, 80 percent to 90 percent of global warming involves heating up ocean waters. They hold much more heat than the atmosphere can. So Willis has been studying the ocean with a fleet of robotic instruments called the Argo system. The buoys can dive 3,000 feet down and measure ocean temperature. Since the system was fully deployed in 2003, it has recorded no warming of the global oceans.

 

Very scientific, they havn't a clue, but they'll take the warming route because it fits the agenda.

[Phanerothyme]

Article 1 from wiki

Figure 1 only goes as far as 2003 as the ocean heat data used (Domingues 2008 ) only goes that far. What has global warming been doing since then? Since 2003, ocean heat data has been measured by the newly deployed Argo network. However, there have been teething problems with the Argo buoys experiencing pressure sensor issues that impose a cooling bias on the data. Consequently there have been several data analyses on ocean heat since 2003. One reconstruction of ocean heat show cooling since 2003 (Willis 2008 ). Other analyses of the Argo data show ocean warming (Levitus 2009, Leuliette 2009, Cazenave 2009).

 

 

Article 2 from me

Some 3,000 scientific robots that are plying the ocean have sent home a puzzling message. These diving instruments suggest that the oceans have not warmed up at all over the past four or five years. That could mean global warming has taken a breather. Or it could mean scientists aren't quite understanding what their robots are telling them.

 

This is puzzling in part because here on the surface of the Earth, the years since 2003 have been some of the hottest on record. But Josh Willis at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says the oceans are what really matter when it comes to global warming.

 

In fact, 80 percent to 90 percent of global warming involves heating up ocean waters. They hold much more heat than the atmosphere can. So Willis has been studying the ocean with a fleet of robotic instruments called the Argo system. The buoys can dive 3,000 feet down and measure ocean temperature. Since the system was fully deployed in 2003, it has recorded no warming of the global oceans.

 

Very scientific, they havn't a clue, but they'll take the warming route because it fits the agenda.

 

Then you saw this bit:

Subsequently, however, another JGR article, “Global hydrographic variability patterns during 2003–2008” (subs. req’d, draft here) details an analysis of “monthly gridded global temperature and salinity fields from the near-surface layer down to 2000 m depth based on Argo measurements.”

 

http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/ocean-heat-2000m.gif

 

Still warming, after all these years! And just where you’d expect it. The study makes clear that upper ocean heat content, perhaps not surprisingly, is simply far more variable than deeper ocean heat content, and thus an imperfect indicator of the long-term warming trend.

 

UPDATE: Yes, I am aware of the recent upper-ocean heat content data on the web. Please note that plots of very recent, highly variable upper-ocean content heat data down to 700 meters from unpeer-reviewed sources do not trump peer-reviewed analysis of much longer-term data down to 2000 m.

[Wildcat]

Article 1 from wiki

Figure 1 only goes as far as 2003 as the ocean heat data used (Domingues 2008 ) only goes that far. What has global warming been doing since then? Since 2003, ocean heat data has been measured by the newly deployed Argo network. However, there have been teething problems with the Argo buoys experiencing pressure sensor issues that impose a cooling bias on the data. Consequently there have been several data analyses on ocean heat since 2003. One reconstruction of ocean heat show cooling since 2003 (Willis 2008 ). Other analyses of the Argo data show ocean warming (Levitus 2009, Leuliette 2009, Cazenave 2009).

 

 

Article 2 from me

Some 3,000 scientific robots that are plying the ocean have sent home a puzzling message. These diving instruments suggest that the oceans have not warmed up at all over the past four or five years. That could mean global warming has taken a breather. Or it could mean scientists aren't quite understanding what their robots are telling them.

 

This is puzzling in part because here on the surface of the Earth, the years since 2003 have been some of the hottest on record. But Josh Willis at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says the oceans are what really matter when it comes to global warming.

 

In fact, 80 percent to 90 percent of global warming involves heating up ocean waters. They hold much more heat than the atmosphere can. So Willis has been studying the ocean with a fleet of robotic instruments called the Argo system. The buoys can dive 3,000 feet down and measure ocean temperature. Since the system was fully deployed in 2003, it has recorded no warming of the global oceans.

 

retep,

 

how did you manage to miss the paragraphs immediately after the one you quoted?

 

How do we determine which analyses are more accurate? Ocean heat data can also be independently determined through other empirical means. Cazenave 2009 uses satellite gravity measurements to create two independent estimates of ocean heat – both find warming. Sea level has been inexorably rising since 2003. As a large portion of sea level rise is due to thermal expansion from ocean warming, this is an indirect confirmation of warming.

 

Lastly, the planet’s energy imbalance is confirmed by satellite measurements of incoming and outgoing radiation. Earth’s Global Energy Budget (Trenberth 2009) examines satellite measurements for the Mar 2000 to May 2004 period and finds the planet is accumulating energy at a rate of 0.9 ± 0.15 W m−2. This is consistent with the amount of heat accumulating in the ocean. Preliminary analysis on the latest CERES satellite data shows an increasing energy imbalance from 2004 to the end of 2008 (although this data is yet to be published, more on this later).

 

So the point to remember when considering short term cooling trends in surface temperature records is that the atmosphere is only one small part of a planet which is in energy imbalance. Empirical measurements show the planet continues to accumulate heat. More energy is coming in than is radiating back out to space. Global warming continued past 1998 and is still happening.

 

Very scientific, they havn't a clue, but they'll take the warming route because it fits the agenda.

 

What I am struggling to understand is how you have managed to come to that conclusion based on the evidence in terms of references you have presented, which would appear to be making the opposite claim?

 

Do you really think the Willis paper (which only deals with the top 300m) indicates anything other than problems with interpreting the Argo data or variability, as you would expect of the upper ocean? subsequent research on the full 2000m that can be measured corresponds with what the other indicators of ocean warming (sea level rise, satellite measurements etc) all say a consistent and worrying rate of warming.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Wildcat