Am I still allowed to question climate change?

[truman]

They've used more than one proxy - tree rings, ice cores, sediments to name but three.

 

If the tree ring one falls down post 1960 what's to say it's valid before then?

[splodgeyAl]

I'll agree with you re the caves, I think it's what most Governments want is in anyway; they're trying to tax us back to the stone age.

 

I also agree that ALL scientists should have the best (and I mean the actual 'uncorrected') data available to them.

 

I think that the Model(s) they use should be changed, but that they should have some sort of version control system in place, and that any changes made to the model so that it reflects the currently observed data should be run on the proxy data previously published.

I'd agree with you about version control on their models. I have a feeling they will from now. If not, they clearly don't want to learn lessons.

[splodgeyAl]

If the tree ring one falls down post 1960 what's to say it's valid before then?

 

From what I understand, it tallies with the other proxies prior to that

[spindrift]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8400905.stm

 

 

The first decade of this century is "by far" the warmest since instrumental records began, say the UK Met Office and World Meteorological Organization.

 

Their analyses also show that 2009 will almost certainly be the fifth warmest in the 160-year record.

 

Burgeoning El Nino conditions, adding to man-made greenhouse warming, have pushed 2009 into the "top 10" years.

 

The US space agency Nasa suggests that a new global temperature record will be set "in the next one or two years".

 

World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and Met Office scientists have been giving details of the new analysis at the UN climate summit in Copenhagen.

 

The WMO said global temperatures were 0.44C (0.79F) above the long-term average.

[splodgeyAl]

so why include the flawed tree ring proxies?

 

wildcats answer is that only the tree ring proxies have wide enough geographic coverage. If that is true it is only possible to do the analysis using flawed proxies.

 

Because the science is new, and until all the proxies were used and the discrepancies found, no-one would have known there were discrepancies?

[nightrider]

Because the science is new, and until all the proxies were used and the discrepancies found, no-one would have known there were discrepancies?

 

nope. The tree-rings don't even agree with real temperature records from thermometers post-1960, so its obvious they have a serious problem before you even think about reconstructing a temperature record with them. So why do they use them? Why not use other proxies instead which do not suffer from this problem?

 

As I said wildcat claims the other proxies are simply not widespread enough to be used on their own to do the reconstruction. So the whole thing appears to depend on the flawed tree-ring proxies.

[BasilRathbon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8400905.stm

 

 

The first decade of this century is "by far" the warmest since instrumental records began, say the UK Met Office and World Meteorological Organization.

 

Their analyses also show that 2009 will almost certainly be the fifth warmest in the 160-year record.

 

Burgeoning El Nino conditions, adding to man-made greenhouse warming, have pushed 2009 into the "top 10" years.

 

The US space agency Nasa suggests that a new global temperature record will be set "in the next one or two years".

 

World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and Met Office scientists have been giving details of the new analysis at the UN climate summit in Copenhagen.

 

The WMO said global temperatures were 0.44C (0.79F) above the long-term average.

 

Hmm, the BBC isn't exactly known for its impartiality on this issue, is it?

 

And anyway a link on the same page says this:

 

"EVIDENCE THAT THE EARTH'S TEMPERATURE IS GETTING WARMER IS UNCLEAR

 

Instruments show there has been some warming of the Earth's surface since 1979, but the actual value is subject to large errors. Most long-term data comes from surface weather stations. Many of these are in urban centres which have been expanding and using more energy. When these stations observe a temperature rise, they are simply measuring the "urban heat island effect". In addition, coverage is patchy, with some regions of the world almost devoid of instruments. Data going back further than a century or two is derived from "proxy" indicators such as tree-rings and stalactites which, again, are subject to large errors. "

[Stormy]

More green hypocrisy. Watch out for Al Gore on his private jet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe-3BpfHwXA

[spindrift]

In a separate announcement, the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) has revealed that 2009 will become another top ten warm year. Despite this winter being the coldest in a decade, overall the temperature was 0.44 C above the long-term average of 14 C. This year has been warmer than 2008 owing to the emergence of El Niño conditions in the eastern tropical Pacific Ocean, and is expected to become the 5th warmest year in the instrumental record that dates back to 1850.

[truman]

In a separate announcement, the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) has revealed that 2009 will become another top ten warm year. Despite this winter being the coldest in a decade, overall the temperature was 0.44 C above the long-term average of 14 C. This year has been warmer than 2008 owing to the emergence of El Niño conditions in the eastern tropical Pacific Ocean, and is expected to become the 5th warmest year in the instrumental record that dates back to 1850.

 

So it's colder than some previous years?